Distance Learning and Associations

[Chester Wright]

If you google search most Martial Arts your sure to find several different Martial Arts associations that either offer distance learning programs or association opportunities to join (for a nominal fee of course). This topic usually strikes good conversation as to the legitimacy of such instruction or organization. While I am sure we all have our own reserves about this topic, I was wondering if anyone has ever joined one of these associations or purchased a distance learning program. If so which one and how would you rate the quality?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have not, nor would I. Utter crap.

 

[Buka]

We all know nothing takes the place of first hand, good instruction done on a regular basis over a long period of time.

As for the long distance thing, I think a lot has to do with the experience of the person purchasing the program. I can't, for the life of me, see how an inexperienced person can get much, if anything, without an instructor. Maybe a really good athlete, with an understanding of body mechanics, can get something out of it, but I'm not sure how much.

One of my long time students got the Gracie program and he really liked it. But he had trained some with Rickson and was already familiar with basic jits training. Some of his students trained along with him, but they had him there to help them.

Does anyone know of a striking system that's offered the long distance thing?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Books and videos are an excellent resource when used as a supplement to a good instructor. I've published two specific to Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. Attempting to use them without an instructor will result in failure. It will not work.
An experienced martial artist, especially one who is trained in a similar art, could do more with the books/videos alone. Using my own books as an example, someone trained in ITF or KKW TKD could probably adapt to our system.
I learned the Taegeuk poomsae from the KKW DVD's. I then performed them for a KKW 7th Dan who had no issues with my technique. That was in 2010. I started TKD in 1969. So although I didn't train continuously during that 40 years, I did have a fair bit of experience, with Dan ranks from the ITF and MDK. Yes, this was done intentionally as a test to see how well video training worked, since obviously I could have sought training from a KKW instructor.
When one of our Black Belt Candidates opts for KKW certification, I teach them these forms. They typically have 6-8 years of experience within the Moo Duk Kwan (that's our average to 1st Dan). They learn them a lot faster from me than I did from video.

There used to be a member here who taught Hapkido online. It was a somewhat different distance learning system, in that (as I understand it) rather than learning just from videos, students use video conferencing (skype, facetime, or something similar) to interact with the instructor. This seems to me to have slightly more potential than video training, but I am unconvinced that it will result in the same level of skill, at the same rate, for an otherwise untrained student. I've considered signing up for a program like this just to see how well it works.

 

[Flying Crane]

Pure distance learning is a terrible idea.

As has been mentioned, only an experienced person could get some benefit from this kind of thing, and I condition that by saying it also depends greatly on how much, and what kind of experience he has.

But the kicker is this: that experienced person has no need for it. Zero. He already has what he needs, this kind of program will not give him anything he needs.

So the guy who could make it work is the guy who has no need for it. And the guy who might have a need for it lacks the background to make it work. It's worthless.

 

[WaterGal]

Like others have said, distance learning could be good for experienced people. For example, maybe you studied in a style for a few years and then moved, and your style isn't available in the city/state/country you move to. You might be able to use online/book/videos to keep up your training. Or if you want to learn a new form in a style you already know, or get some advice on how to improve a specific kick or sparring strategy or whatever. But I think you have to be experienced enough to know what it is that you're looking for.

 

[Ironbear24]

We all know nothing takes the place of first hand, good instruction done on a regular basis over a long period of time.

As for the long distance thing, I think a lot has to do with the experience of the person purchasing the program. I can't, for the life of me, see how an inexperienced person can get much, if anything, without an instructor. Maybe a really good athlete, with an understanding of body mechanics, can get something out of it, but I'm not sure how much.

One of my long time students got the Gracie program and he really liked it. But he had trained some with Rickson and was already familiar with basic jits training. Some of his students trained along with him, but they had him there to help them.

Does anyone know of a striking system that's offered the long distance thing?

I have not, I am of course not the best person to give an opinion on this as I have far less experience than most people around here, but for what it is worth I can't imagine taking any sort of instruction without contact sparring and a real physical practice with the instructor.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

There used to be a member here who taught Hapkido online. It was a somewhat different distance learning system, in that (as I understand it) rather than learning just from videos, students use video conferencing (skype, facetime, or something similar) to interact with the instructor. This seems to me to have slightly more potential than video training, but I am unconvinced that it will result in the same level of skill, at the same rate, for an otherwise untrained student. I've considered signing up for a program like this just to see how well it works.

I agree that long distance learning is not the best way over instruction in a school with good instructors at hand, and other students to interact with. However, as I recall how he explained it, Instructor Hapkido) had as good a way as possible. You did have to interact with him or one of his instructors on a regular basis, watch videos online as part of his fees, and students were encouraged to visit his school whenever possible. You also had to submit videos for analysis and testing. If you are not aware, Hapkido is a uses a lot of grappling techniques. Without a partner, it would imho be impossible to learn properly. Even with one, you both have to learn at the same time. Still, he was making a go of it, at least before he was reassigned. I don't know how it has gone since then. I haven't seen him here in MT in a long time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Even if someone is doing it in as good a way as possible, that doesn't make it good.

Being the best of the worst is little better than being the worst of the worst.

No matter how you slice it, it's a bad idea.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Even if someone is doing it in as good a way as possible, that doesn't make it good.

Being the best of the worst is little better than being the worst of the worst.

No matter how you slice it, it's a bad idea.

I think one of the better distance learning programs out there is by Zhou Xuan Yun....

My wife was also told that the air quality in Beijing was good on one of the days she was there...AQI of 250 (Very Unhealthy) ...... now that is good....compared to the AQI of 500 (Hazardous) a couple days before...... (0-50 AQI is good)..... I feel the same way about distance learning...... ....most are around 500...... Zhou Xuan Yun is at 250....going to a class or meeting with the instructor regularly is 0-50

 

[Andrew Green]

If you google search most Martial Arts your sure to find several different Martial Arts associations that either offer distance learning programs or association opportunities to join (for a nominal fee of course). This topic usually strikes good conversation as to the legitimacy of such instruction or organization. While I am sure we all have our own reserves about this topic, I was wondering if anyone has ever joined one of these associations or purchased a distance learning program. If so which one and how would you rate the quality?

It's really very simple, martial arts is something that involves an opponent. If you don't have an opponent you can't learn it properly. You might get somewhere with a distance program and a small group of training partners, but having someone that knows what they are doing working with you face to face will make progress far, far faster.

 

[MartialMasters]

I've found book and video learning really handy to help me be more well-rounded. You can get a whole lot of fresh material to play with, and in a way far more convenient (and far less expensive) than trying to find masters/schools or get private lessons. You have access to videos 24/7, you have access to an instructor one-on-one far less frequently.

It's not for everyone, sure...and like anything, it's not the perfect, complete, or only way. But I do think distance learning is generally under-appreciated. I suppose it doesn't help that there's a lot of junk out there, too!

 

[Tez3]

It's not for everyone, sure...and like anything, it's not the perfect, complete, or only way. But I do think distance learning is generally under-appreciated. I suppose it doesn't help that there's a lot of junk out there, too!

I don't think it would help people much if all the instruction was first class, you simply cannot learn martial arts correctly with having an instructor and others to train with. It's just like swimming, you can learn all the actions needed to swim even dive from a video but you need the water to actually learn in.
You can have all the 'fresh material' you like but without a hands on instructor how do you know you are placing yourself correctly or that your technique is sound? Without others to train with how do you know your sparring is effectively? As for being less expensive, is it? When you have hurt yourself because you have used an incorrect technique or when you try to spar and don't know how to and end up injured you will not have saved yourself much money. There is nothing that can replace proper instruction with someone who knws what they are doing and you simply don't get that with a video.

 

[MartialMasters]

I don't think it would help people much if all the instruction was first class, you simply cannot learn martial arts correctly with having an instructor and others to train with. It's just like swimming, you can learn all the actions needed to swim even dive from a video but you need the water to actually learn in.
You can have all the 'fresh material' you like but without a hands on instructor how do you know you are placing yourself correctly or that your technique is sound? Without others to train with how do you know your sparring is effectively? As for being less expensive, is it? When you have hurt yourself because you have used an incorrect technique or when you try to spar and don't know how to and end up injured you will not have saved yourself much money. There is nothing that can replace proper instruction with someone who knws what they are doing and you simply don't get that with a video.

Any half-decent video/book series won't go far without telling you that you need to train and practice with other people, and only bad books/videos would lack an abundance of safety tips and warnings. And every student needs to learn how to practice and develop without 100% dependence on an instructor. Like in music, you never stop valuing the input from experts and teachers, but you also have to learn how to do most of your development in personal practice outside of private lessons! If after ten years you still need a teacher to tell you how to do a C Major scale without tripping over your fingers, you haven't really learned anything. But if you think after ten years that you have nothing more to learn...you're also dead wrong!

This thread seems to be leading to an all-or-nothing extreme. I'm not saying that videos should completely "replace" having private lessons with an instructor. Always value instructors! I'd argue simply that a decent video series sure beats not having any instruction whatsoever! And by a mile. And I'd be quite comfortable and confident making that argument!

If you can't afford $100 an hour to get a private lesson, or there's no decent instructor anywhere near you of a particular style (and let's be honest, really decent instruction is rare!), but you have a good training partner and a willingness to learn (and have $20 for a handful of videos that will give you hours and hours of stuff to play with)...such videos with a lot of content and lessons full of techniques, strategies, body mechanics, safety, etc. by people who really know what they're talking about can go a really long way!

Thousands of people learn martial arts incorrectly with shoddy instructors. Thousands upon thousands. Many keen novices also watch terrible Youtube videos and think they've learned something, but really haven't (a lot of the WSD out there especially makes me die a little inside when I see it). Bad martial arts instruction is everywhere. I would hope that those who really believe in good martial arts should try to support decent instruction, no matter where it comes from (exclaiming with glee, "Finally, something decent!"). Good information, sound techniques, helpful tips...these can all come from various sources, each with its own advantages and disadvantages!

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't say that learning from a video is better than no training and I don't know anywhere that would charge the equivalent of $100 for private instruction. I wouldn't say that music is the same as martial arts where having an instructor is always good no matter how long you've trained, there is always more to learn, more to get right. Personal training is good but it needs to be good practice, taught by an instructor and regularly checked to make sure you are correct. Bad practice makes bad martial artists.

The video instruction may be very good but without an instructor to correct your stances, footwork etc how are you going to know if you are correct? How do you get to understand the nuances of which there are many in martial arts? However good the video instructor you are never going to have that moment where you can't make something work until the instructor moves one of limbs slightly, adjusts the way you are moving and voila it all becomes clear and the technique works beautifully, the video instructor can never do that for you, he can't look at you with the eyes of experience and say he knows what you are doing wrong and put it right for you. You will instead continue to do what you think the instructor is telling you to do and you will continue doing it wrong hence some instruction is not better than no instruction.
If you think we are going down the road of all or nothing it's probably because many of us are instructors who also have instructors and we know the value of face to face teaching as opposed to video stuff. It may be also that 'unteaching' someone who has bad habits from watching videos is time consuming and frustrating.

 

[MartialMasters]

I wouldn't say that learning from a video is better than no training and I don't know anywhere that would charge the equivalent of $100 for private instruction. I wouldn't say that music is the same as martial arts where having an instructor is always good no matter how long you've trained, there is always more to learn, more to get right. Personal training is good but it needs to be good practice, taught by an instructor and regularly checked to make sure you are correct. Bad practice makes bad martial artists.

The video instruction may be very good but without an instructor to correct your stances, footwork etc how are you going to know if you are correct? How do you get to understand the nuances of which there are many in martial arts? However good the video instructor you are never going to have that moment where you can't make something work until the instructor moves one of limbs slightly, adjusts the way you are moving and voila it all becomes clear and the technique works beautifully, the video instructor can never do that for you, he can't look at you with the eyes of experience and say he knows what you are doing wrong and put it right for you. You will instead continue to do what you think the instructor is telling you to do and you will continue doing it wrong hence some instruction is not better than no instruction.
If you think we are going down the road of all or nothing it's probably because many of us are instructors who also have instructors and we know the value of face to face teaching as opposed to video stuff. It may be also that 'unteaching' someone who has bad habits from watching videos is time consuming and frustrating.

Certainly, at the higher levels of finesse, video instruction does break down a bit. There are definitely some problems students face where they need help from an instructor. I'd be a fool to say otherwise. A fresh set of experienced eyes will always be able to give fresh ideas. But I also maintain that as students progress, they develop awareness and don't need instructors to solve everything. I've seen it lots, and I'm sure most instructors have, too. Students start saying things like, "Oh, shoot...I'm leaving my arms down too low." Or, "Oh, I am leaning too far right again." or any hundred little things that need tweaking. I catch myself a little bit 'off' all the time. Good instruction doesn't give a fish, it teaches how to fish (as that tacky old saying goes!). Teach students how to recognize things working or not, and troubleshooting. The more, the better. But they will still always be able to benefit from a teacher!

I have gained tremendous benefit from face-to-face instruction, have learned a lot being an instructor giving people one-on-one feedback and assistance...and I have also learned a lot from videos. That's why I'm happy to vouch for all of those angles and mediums, when they are good!
To give a more specific example of the video learning...every kind of gun work I encountered locally was garbage...I couldn't find anything good (up North, outside of hunting, we Canadians don't know much about guns!). I could tell right away it was all clearly being taught by people who have probably never fired a gun in their life (and had little concept of burning powder, kick-back, how to jam mechanisms, you name it). But when I encountered a small handful of actual military instruction videos from master instructors in different parts of the world...that was a revelation! Eye-opening, to say the least. Insights I'd never get locally. Raiding my dad's gun collection, working with a knowledgeable partner, firing guns at a range...all this taught me more than I'd ever have been able to learn otherwise!
Would it still be better for me to actually meet with some Elite Russian Special Forces instructor. Yeah. No doubt. But the chances of that happening are basically zero!

Now, I definitely agree, having to 'unlearn' people who've done things wrong is really annoying. Worse, those who insist that they are doing it right, or that they "prefer" it that way...and just do their own thing, no matter how weak mechanically or flawed strategically. But dealing with the intricacies of stubborn students and the pedagogical and psychological tactics involved is a whole other matter!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

EDIT: I do not think much of videos.

 

[Tez3]

The problem of course is quality control, how does one know whether a video is good or not?

 

[davidcr]

Learning via books without instructor I injured my tendons, then I spent everything I had to travel long distance every two days to train with a great Sifu.
Without instructor/class you are missing experience of hit, fight and good execution of movements, and at the top of it, the fun of everyday training with Partners.
I strongly do not recommend start with distance learning.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The problem of course is quality control, how does one know whether a video is good or not?

I actually think it goes well beyond that. Imagine something as simple as a punch. You make a video showing that. You've probably seen beginners punch. Horrible. They lean forwards, they lug the punch, whip the arm, telegraph, you name it.

Yet they earnestly think they are doing it just like you showed them. You must correct them, over and over. The video has no such feedback mechanism, even if the person who made it is first-rate.

Even the systems which offer two-way video feedback are going to miss many small but important details. Balance, feet, stance, knees, breathing, fist formation, eyes, etc, etc.

Now multiply that by a thousand.

Video feedback won't fix that. A training partner won't fix that. There is no substitute for qualified in person instruction with immediate correction.

Video training is not a good substitute for real training. If real training isn't available I'd rather they skip rope or do something useful.