Hall of Fame?

[Nolerama]

Due to a few recent posts regarding distance learning, legitimacy issues, and MA instructors (fake/real), I've noticed that all the instructors/systems in question all cite that someone in that school has been inducted into the Martial Arts Hall of Fame.

I googled it. There's several MA HoFs out there.

One even states that visitors should not contact the HoF, but attempt to contact Billy Blanks (or any one of the inductees) in order to nominate someone into that particular HoF.

I'm making a common sensical guess and will assume that all instructors that claim induction to a MA HoF is lying, or at the very least, padding their resume'.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Most of the HOF's, soke boards, etc exist pretty much to pad resumes and add "ahh" to marketing. People are impressed with wall candy and high ranks in many arts.

 

[jks9199]

The primary criteria for membership in many Halls of Fame is whether or not the check cleared. Quite a few will even let you nominate yourself... In my book, that's kind of a clue.

Personally, a meaningful Hall of Fame, in my book, would require that you be nominated by a group of respected people with specific knowledge of the endeavor in question. The nominee shouldn't pay a dime. Not even for any award banquet. If anyone pays -- it should be those who nominated him. And that fee should be absolute, accepted or not.

 

[Nolerama]

Shucks.... I was hoping to plan a vacation around visiting an actual Hall...

Filled with Fame and martial arts stuff.

Darn.

 

[arnisador]

Most of the HOF's, soke boards, etc exist pretty much to pad resumes and add "ahh" to marketing.

By and large, if I know nothing else about a person I take membership in a HoF as a negative. I used to make an exception for Black belt mag.'s HoF, but...

 

[exile]

By and large, if I know nothing else about a person I take membership in a HoF as a negative. I used to make an exception for Black belt mag.'s HoF, but...

And a major 'but' it is, too, as anyone who's ever compared BB's story coverage space with their advertisement clientele will fervently agree with. I once did this for three issues chosen at random (and no, it wasn't a case of having not enough to do... why would you think that?? ) In every case, the 'feature' stories were devoted to people who just happened to have had big ads in the current issue, mostly double-page layouts. Sheer coincidence, of course.

Halls of Fame are probably a very useful probe into the web of quid pro quos that—cynically speaking—most well-rewarded areas of activity consist of. The Chinese (Mandarin speakers, anyway) have a word for it... guanxi—and in traditional societies, it's the law of life. And not just in traditional societies, clearly...

 

[searcher]

Jim, IMO, hit it on the head. It is all about cash. I don't think it is even possible to make one HoF that would encompass all martial arts. I mean, shoot, we all fight about so much stuff as it is, how could we ever agree on a HoF or rules for induction?

Nice idea, but not a reality.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

The primary criteria for membership in many Halls of Fame is whether or not the check cleared. Quite a few will even let you nominate yourself... In my book, that's kind of a clue.

Personally, a meaningful Hall of Fame, in my book, would require that you be nominated by a group of respected people with specific knowledge of the endeavor in question. The nominee shouldn't pay a dime. Not even for any award banquet. If anyone pays -- it should be those who nominated him. And that fee should be absolute, accepted or not.

I think it depends on the Hall of Fame and the award - I am certainly not saying that there are not some out there like the ones that you have mentioned. I went last year to a big Hall of Fame Banquet. My husband had not even had membership yet in the group but he was approached by one of them and told at the time he was nominated for instructor of the year.

As the year went on and the school plans were being in put into motion for our move down to the Keys and our wedding - we ended up sparring in that associations tournament circuits. We got to a know many of the master/grandmaster/sokes/sifus/etc (if I left anybody out I humbly apologize now) and what was nice is that I even met some masters that were married to each other and some of the women started to take me under their wing.

Well, to make a long story short. We go to the banquet, bring some friends and family - the Instructor of the Year award gets called and it's not him. Great - it's an honor to be nominated no big deal. It turns out that he got the Silver Lifetime Achievement Award for service to the arts. Much of that had to do with stuff he had done for charity organizations in his own time. It was a shock.

It was a such a shock they had to call his name twice because he didn't respond the first time. I don't know just an interesting little thing. Although I am sure there are some like the ones you describe that one there was a really good experience.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I've lost track of the HOF invitations I've received. Master of the Year, Black Belt of the Year, Lifetime achievement, and a couple of sokeships.

Problem is, I don't now, nor have I ever owned a school, been an instructor, earned a legitimate black belt, and I'm only 38.

The awards vanished when I failed to send in my acceptance check. Most of the forms invited me to submit another name should I wish to decline.


I am now the 10th dan Soke of Kunate. It seems just as credible and great as the honors I didn't buy.

 

[terryl965]

I can relatetop Bobs last post I have been ask to join several HoF but when they did not recieve a check I was not inducted. So be it, I really do not care about recognition but only in training and the training of my students.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm sorry to hear so many 'Hall of Fame' organizations are the equivalent of vanity publishing houses. I do not believe that my organization's HoF is fake.

http://ihof.us/inductees.html

My sensei is there - 2008, Dan Holloway. This man walks it like he talks it. Click on his bio - he learned from the men whom Master Shimabuku taught personally. His HoF induction certificate does not grace the walls of the dojo - only his promotion certificates. He does not advertise, he does not puff himself up or hold himself out to be someone he is not. He has my absolute respect and admiration, and I consider myself very fortunate to be able to be trained by him.

I would be interested to hear if somone thinks this HoF is 'fake'.

 

[grydth]

Shucks.... I was hoping to plan a vacation around visiting an actual Hall...

Filled with Fame and martial arts stuff.

Darn.

Try the Hockey Hall of Fame, then. Great history and some good fights as well.

 

[Gordon Nore]

And a major 'but' it is, too, as anyone who's ever compared BB's story coverage space with their advertisement clientele will fervently agree with. I once did this for three issues chosen at random (and no, it wasn't a case of having not enough to do... why would you think that??). In every case, the 'feature' stories were devoted to people who just happened to have had big ads in the current issue, mostly double-page layouts. Sheer coincidence, of course.

Black Belt is shamelessly obvious in this regard. More column inches go to the bigger advertisers.

As for the many Halls of Fame out there, I wouldn't invest too much concern over those who have added legitimate famous martial artists to their ranks. That's an obvious ploy to lure in members. It's right up there with "scheduled to appear." An event organizers asks a luminary if s/he would appear at an event -- expenses paid. Luminary says, "Yes." Advertising reads, "So-n-so is 'scheduled to appear.'" Plane tickets are never sent.

For instance, I've just declared Bob Hubbard Webmaster of the Year for the International Association of Martial Arts Webmasters.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm still waiting for a response to my question. I think Gordon is making a statement, but it is a vague insinuation - I'd prefer to hear the actual words.

 

[jks9199]

I'm still waiting for a response to my question. I think Gordon is making a statement, but it is a vague insinuation - I'd prefer to hear the actual words.

I'm sorry to hear so many 'Hall of Fame' organizations are the equivalent of vanity publishing houses. I do not believe that my organization's HoF is fake.

http://ihof.us/inductees.html

My sensei is there - 2008, Dan Holloway. This man walks it like he talks it. Click on his bio - he learned from the men whom Master Shimabuku taught personally. His HoF induction certificate does not grace the walls of the dojo - only his promotion certificates. He does not advertise, he does not puff himself up or hold himself out to be someone he is not. He has my absolute respect and admiration, and I consider myself very fortunate to be able to be trained by him.

I would be interested to hear if somone thinks this HoF is 'fake'.

Bill,
I don't know if it's a sincere Hall of Fame or if it's a money making credential mill. I know or at least am acquainted with several of the inductees; they're folks I think rather well of and would be rather surprised if they applied for a wall-hanging credential. At the same time, I don't see a couple names that I personally think maybe ought to be there.

The bottom line is simple: decide for yourself, and judge for yourself. And judge the person, not the titles and awards they have.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill,
I don't know if it's a sincere Hall of Fame or if it's a money making credential mill. I know or at least am acquainted with several of the inductees; they're folks I think rather well of and would be rather surprised if they applied for a wall-hanging credential. At the same time, I don't see a couple names that I personally think maybe ought to be there.

Thank you for the response. I have to admit, when I read this thread last night, it made me a tad cranky. I didn't know about 'fake' HoF's, but it makes sense that they would exist - I'm familiar with similar things in the photographic world (I'm a part-time photographer) and writing, etc. Even the famous "Who's Who is XZY" series of books are just vanity press things.

At the same time, I know my Sensei, and he's not hung up on awards, degrees, etc. He just doesn't do it - he doesn't even advertise his dojo, which does not make money. He gives away scholarships and trades out window-cleaning for lessons for people who can't afford the $50 per month he charges. He's just NOT that kind of ego-driven person. So while I don't know anything about the Isshinryu Hall of Fame, I do know about him. I also know that people like Master Willy Adams, Master Mitchum, Master Angi Uezu, and others who have known, deserved, and unquestioned high status in the Issinryu world have been to our dojo, are close personal friends with my Sensei, and are not frauds - nor would they put up with a fraud in their midst. If they are inductees and believe it is real - then that's good enough for me.

I have to admit, it gets my hackles up. If feels like someone calling my Sensei a fraud - or at best a dupe - and this much I know for a fact is wrong, and I'm rather hacked off that someone would judge him without knowing him.

The bottom line is simple: decide for yourself, and judge for yourself. And judge the person, not the titles and awards they have.

Naturally. But that does not change the basic statement being made here - that ALL HoF's are fake - which implies that those who are inductees are either frauds looking to pad their resumes or dupes who didn't realize they were lending their names to a fraudulent enterprise.

So I'm still a bit ticked off.

 

[jks9199]

It's also important to remember that, in at least some cases, the supposed honoree of the "Hall of Shame" isn't even consulted or aware of their inclusion! This is often especially true of the really big names (Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, various and sundry founders, et al) but can be as true of smaller names.

Sometimes, someone is even on the list as a result of a well intended action. Their students want to honor them, come across the Super Duper Martial Artist Hall of Fame, and decide that presenting their teacher with this plaque and "honor" would be a really nice thing... and it's only a few bucks a piece if they divvy the cost up... Add that to the reluctance of some Oriental cultures to decline anything directly, especially in public, and you can see why some "good" names end up on the garbage lists.

Again -- not all such lists are garbage. But they're definitely more questionable when they represent many, many styles, never miss a year to award a long list of names, and so on.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Many of these Hall of Fame's make their money off of people paying to attend the banquet. So even if some one does not pay for the award per se they pay for it via their banquet fees. If you were inducted into a Hall of Fame that was really a major induction would they not pay for your hotel room, flight, banquet, etc?

Really when some one say's they are in a Hall of Fame it does not impress me at all. Just like if some one said they won a tournament, mma fight, etc. I will base my opinion of them off their personal interaction with me. Nor will I allow myself to be included in a Hall of Fame if I have a choice in the matter.

Bill,

The hall of fame you linked to I have no idea whether or not it is good or bad. I can though probably say in my opinion based off knowledge or how these things operate that they make money off their banquet and that this may be a driving force of it being created.

Though truthfully I have no knowledge of this or imply that the said Hall of Fame is negative in any way. :erg: They may simply be the exception to the rule and if so good for them!

Quite often these Hall of Fame banquets are like throwing a major tourney where you can make some serious cash if you do it right.

Many a good person has fallen to this trap and decided hey why not! I think in the end each person is responsible directly for themselves and their actions!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's also important to remember that, in at least some cases, the supposed honoree of the "Hall of Shame" isn't even consulted or aware of their inclusion! This is often especially true of the really big names (Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, various and sundry founders, et al) but can be as true of smaller names.

http://ihof.us/ has been around for 30 years. Isshinryu's founder, Master Tatsuo Shimabuku, could not have known of being inducted, as he was deceased at the time. The others, to the best of my knowledge, were. This is a yearly event, not a web-only kind of thing. The board of directors represent the various factions and organizations that Isshinryu has devolved into (sad thing, that), but most 'real' Isshinryu organizations in the US are represented.

Sometimes, someone is even on the list as a result of a well intended action. Their students want to honor them, come across the Super Duper Martial Artist Hall of Fame, and decide that presenting their teacher with this plaque and "honor" would be a really nice thing... and it's only a few bucks a piece if they divvy the cost up... Add that to the reluctance of some Oriental cultures to decline anything directly, especially in public, and you can see why some "good" names end up on the garbage lists.

With this list (http://ihof.us/inductees.html), either the IHOF is not doing a very good job of 'selling' honors, or -perhaps- it might be real. That's the entire list - all 30 years of it.

At the bottom, you will see a group photo, taken in 2002. Present were such luminaries as Harold Mitchum, Toby Cooling, Willie Adams, and Norbert Donnelly - all people that I think everyone in Isshinryu knows of and respects. They were there in person - hardly a plaque ordered by some well-meaning students.

Again -- not all such lists are garbage. But they're definitely more questionable when they represent many, many styles, never miss a year to award a long list of names, and so on.

The IHOF only includes Isshinryu masters and legends, and the list is pretty short. I don't see how anyone could call it either 'garbage' or 'fake'. In a number of years, they didn't even induct ANYONE into the IHOF. Why would a 'fake' HoF do that?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Bill here is the 2008 induction and awards group:

http://ihof.us/2008_awards.html