discouraged by the TKD community

[Dirty Dog]

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticising you, I agree, I could teach someone dedicated the whole Taegeuk series in a few days. But that wouldn't mean their technique would pass a grading (particularly at the higher Dan levels for assimilation).

I didn't take it as a criticism. Just pointing out my own experience is of people learning a second or third form set. Quickly. And well enough to pass at their Dan level. It's a very small sample, but worth considering.

Thanks for the offer, being honest I have zero interest in the Palgwae forms (as I'm a Kukkiwon and Changmookwan support, I see that poomsae series as deprecated and unofficial now) - but if I ever come over to your area of the States, I'd love to meet up.

Sure, there's no reason for you to learn them other than curiosity. We don't offer ITF rank. But I still practice the forms because I like forms.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Like that matters. I don't practice sine wave. That's a long way from saying I can't do the forms with sine wave.

Of course it matters. It's called muscle memory. You don't have any SW muscle memory to erase.

 

[skribs]

I didn't take it as a criticism. Just pointing out my own experience is of people learning a second or third form set. Quickly. And well enough to pass at their Dan level. It's a very small sample, but worth considering.

We do the Kibons and "Palgwes" at my school. (I put it in quotes because ours deviate from what I've seen online, especially at higher levels). We're just starting to phase in the Taegeuks.

What I've seen is that with Kibon 1, it takes many students quite a lot of effort to learn it. Especially the younger kids. It can take some students months for it to finally click. But then by the time they're green belts and they're learning Palgwe 2, it takes most students just a few classes to memorize the whole form.

When we started introducing the Taegeuks at green belt, it threw most of our green belts through a loop, because the footwork is very different from the Kibon/Palgwe forms. Most of our black belts caught on pretty fast. At least to a passable degree (as you mention).

Learning the differences in stances and chambers is taking a bit longer.

 

[skribs]

If you want to pop over to the States for a week, I'll bet I can teach you the Palgwae forms in a matter of days.

This is 2021. You can do that over Zoom.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Of course it matters. It's called muscle memory. You don't have any SW muscle memory to erase.

You really have no idea how this works, obviously.

 

[dvcochran]

Andy is a pretty open and genuine person, and I've found that he offers his expertise where he can. I doubt he meant any disrespect other than those formsets have zero interest to him. I mean, I don't have any interest in them either, not because they are worthless, but I would rather spend my time training other parts of the art.

Fully agree and I have respect for Mr. Jefferies (who I do not know beyond the internet) and his contributions. I am certain he is an asset within his KKW circle.

 

[dvcochran]

I forgot to reply to this point, but I don't follow what you mean. It seems like you're saying that modern Taekwondo was "built on" the Palgwae series (as that's the only part you misunderstood me as deigning)?

As I understand it the Palgwae series were completed in 1967 and completely replaced (not built upon) in 1972 by the Taegeuk series. So from 1955 (taking the naming day of Taekwondo as the starting point) to 1967 and 1972 to 2021, it means we've had 61 years of not doing Palgwae poomsae (officially) vs 5 years of some* practitioners using them.

Even ignoring the time spent, given that I think everyone acknowledges that the Taegeuk are a new series and not at all based on the Palgwae series, I don't understand how you got to being the "pure history on which what you are holding so high was built on"?

Maybe you could explain what you meant by that sentence?

* My understanding from talking with senior Taekwondoin (e.g. my Kwan president) and history researchers in Korea is that the Palgwae poomsae weren't entirely accepted and practiced by all dojang in Korea, hence their wholesale replacement. I had those conversations, because if those people told me I should still learn them, I'd likely have done so.

Well, that is a totally baseless and opinionated statement. Yes, the Palgwe forms were created in 1967. But how can you say they were replaced when they are clearly still being practiced and used in countless dojangs?
You are making my point about drinking the Koolaid for me.

Look, I am not going go get into the KKW debate. I am a 5th Dan in KKW, I support them financially, utilize and leverage the KKW/WT banner in the sport side of things. I am north of 200 KKW black belts.
But again, let's be real; if you want to talk depth in martial arts the conversation is not going to last very long in regards to KKW.

I have no doubt you can quote the KKW by-laws better than me (outside sport rules) but c'mon man, there is a whole lot more to it than the Taegueks.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

You really have no idea how this works, obviously.

Ok, I'm sure you know better who never adopted SW how hard it is to undo. How silly of me thinking someone actually did SW would know. It's the opposite of course.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok, I'm sure you know better who never adopted SW how hard it is to undo. How silly of me thinking someone actually did SW would know. It's the opposite of course.

What's to undo? I decide how I'm going to move. If I want to do sine wave, I can do sine wave. If I do not, I do not. Apparently you can't control your movement. That's very sad, but you're really quite inexperienced. My comments were, clearly, meant to reference people with significant amounts of training and experience.

 

[skribs]

Well, that is a totally baseless and opinionated statement. Yes, the Palgwe forms were created in 1967. But how can you say they were replaced when they are clearly still being practiced and used in countless dojangs?

They were replaced within the KKW curriculum. KKW requires Taegeuks and not Palgwes.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

What's to undo? I decide how I'm going to move. If I want to do sine wave, I can do sine wave. If I do not, I do not. Apparently you can't control your movement. That's very sad, but you're really quite inexperienced. My comments were, clearly, meant to reference people with significant amounts of training and experience.

It doesn't work that way. You will do it even If you think you aren't. Has nothing to do with control. You don't think when something is ingrained, so suddenly you have to active think to switch something off, and that will undermine the mechanics that you are trying to learn. For a while.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

. My comments were, clearly, meant to reference people with significant amounts of training and experience.

It's the complete opposite. The more you have done it, the harder it is to omit

 

[dvcochran]

They were replaced within the KKW curriculum. KKW requires Taegeuks and not Palgwes.

TBC, I meant to say "they were replace in 1975". AndyJefferies said "they were replaced" with no inference to KKW. That is taken to imply en masse, which is simply incorrect.

This is exactly where things are misunderstood and go off the rails. I infer that sometimes we get so blinded by living inside certain walls that we completely forget there is a whole lot more going on outside of them.

I (and others clearly) understood what he was saying but for the sake of everyone it is important to clarify something like this.

You and I have had a similar conversation. As I recall, you were on the bashing side of KKW forms (particularly Taegueks or possibly Yudanja, I forget) and I was on the side taking up for them. And I still will in the right format.

So, where be you? I made the argument with you because I was certain it was with someone who has/had limited experience with the forms.
I made the argument with Mr. Jefferies for the same reason with the Palgwe's (to which he admitted). Who has the right for such a baseless argument?
Heck, show me where KKW has a breakdown explaining the purpose of the Taeguek movements, beyond competition and I will retract my opinion. I mean a detailed purpose; not a breakdown of the physical movements which are a dime a dozen on Youtube and vary greatly.
Show me some depth.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It doesn't work that way. You will do it even If you think you aren't. Has nothing to do with control. You don't think when something is ingrained, so suddenly you have to active think to switch something off, and that will undermine the mechanics that you are trying to learn. For a while.

It's the complete opposite. The more you have done it, the harder it is to omit

Wrong. And wrong. And wrong again. I can easily believe that you don't think and merely parrot back things you do not understand. Others do not operate with the same limitation. If you work hard, someday you might get past your limitations. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it's possible.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Wrong. And wrong. And wrong again. I can easily believe that you don't think and merely parrot back things you do not understand. Others do not operate with the same limitation. If you work hard, someday you might get past your limitations. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it's possible.

What other arts have you trained?

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Switching to this type of punching was not a matter days of training, even though I was a very capable puncher.

 

[andyjeffries]

TBC, I meant to say "they were replace in 1975". AndyJefferies said "they were replaced" with no inference to KKW. That is taken to imply en masse, which is simply incorrect.

You're right, I wasn't clear. I was referring to the creation of new patterns, not extending/enhancing the previous series in opposition to your point about "built on", but was referring to the groups responsible for creating both sets (KTA, KKW) rather than all practitioners.

I (and others clearly) understood what he was saying but for the sake of everyone it is important to clarify something like this.

Agree 100%

Heck, show me where KKW has a breakdown explaining the purpose of the Taeguek movements, beyond competition and I will retract my opinion. I mean a detailed purpose; not a breakdown of the physical movements which are a dime a dozen on Youtube and vary greatly.

Lots of people say this, I think due to the hidden "secret" bunkai of Karate kata of hip throws via low block, etc. As I understand it though from deeper reading, the founders of Karate never designed the kata to have those movements, they've been later "discovered" (more likely made up). Whether that's true or not is up for debate, but surely if Funakoshi Gichin Sensei had more hidden applications for all the movements, he'd have put them in his books so they'd outlive him as he did with his techniques and philosophies.

At least Kukkiwon Taekwondo is more honest, there are no hidden purposes to Taegeuk. The moves are as described, a low block is just a low block. The purpose of poomsae practice is long-term (life-long) training, balance, co-ordination rather than practicing a secret set of Taekwondo self defence applications that you need special practice to unlock. They were never designed in there in the first place.

 

[dvcochran]

Lots of people say this, I think due to the hidden "secret" bunkai of Karate kata of hip throws via low block, etc. As I understand it though from deeper reading, the founders of Karate never designed the kata to have those movements, they've been later "discovered" (more likely made up). Whether that's true or not is up for debate, but surely if Funakoshi Gichin Sensei had more hidden applications for all the movements, he'd have put them in his books so they'd outlive him as he did with his techniques and philosophies.

At least Kukkiwon Taekwondo is more honest, there are no hidden purposes to Taegeuk. The moves are as described, a low block is just a low block. The purpose of poomsae practice is long-term (life-long) training, balance, co-ordination rather than practicing a secret set of Taekwondo self defence applications that you need special practice to unlock. They were never designed in there in the first place.

I fully agree with the hyped mysticism and have never subscribed to this nor inferred any of the sort.

Your post above presents many questions but let's work around just one topic. A low block is a low block as you say. So once a white belt has the mechanics down that is it right? There will be improved coordination of the block over time but they know the block, right? I will leave this here for now for you answer.

Something to chew on; which horizontal block is more natural and why? Which block is used first in the Taeguek forms? Why?

You flippantly jumped straight to me claiming 'mysticism' in forms so that you could feel like you debunked me and to dismiss me. It is certainly not mysticism but dude, there is a whole lot more going on here.

This is the issue with staying only in a limited circle of information (in your case KKW). There is nothing to vary the equation. If it never gets unbalanced you will never really know if you have the final solution.
Apparently, you are in circle that says forms are purely for exercise and competition (which may be true for the taeguek's). That mindset has left many variables Out of the equation. Why? My experience is says it is because it is the easy path. It solves for a zero that is more palatable and easier to understand.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

surely if Funakoshi Gichin Sensei had more hidden applications for all the movements, he'd have put them in his books so they'd outlive him as he did with his techniques and philosophies.

He wasn't the one who designed the moves. Karate bunkai was already garbage by the time Funakoshi promoted it. Karate went from grappling oriented to striking and this undercut the katas true meaning.

 

[andyjeffries]

Your post above presents many questions but let's work around just one topic. A low block is a low block as you say. So once a white belt has the mechanics down that is it right? There will be improved coordination of the block over time but they know the block, right? I will leave this here for now for you answer.

Pretty much for me, yes. There'll be improved co-ordination and power, etc - but they won't learn a hidden secret to a low block later from my dojang.

Something to chew on; which horizontal block is more natural and why? Which block is used first in the Taeguek forms? Why?

From my experience teaching beginners none of the Taekwondo blocks seem natural

You flippantly jumped straight to me claiming 'mysticism' in forms so that you could feel like you debunked me and to dismiss me.

Whoah?! You seem to be taking everything I've said to be against you personally? This and the previous replies from you over the past couple of days. Have I said something before all of this to offend you? You seem to be jumping from a discussion level (I wouldn't even really consider this a debate) to taking my messages as if I'm flippantly trying to dismiss you. I'm genuinely not trying to do that at all!

I respect you and while we may differ on some of our opinions, I'm just discussing how we differ in our thoughts, because it's interesting.

If I have done something before all of this (or even during all of this) to offend you, I'm genuinely sorry - it was never my intention and except that it feels (from my side) like you're going from 0-100 SUPER QUICKLY in your replies to me, it's never felt like this was anything other than discussion...