Digging Deeper....

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,637
Reaction score
2,702
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
There are 2on1 controls. But for some strange reason the other guy doesn't just let you walk up and take them.
If you learn a technique, you should also learn how to counter that technique. IMO, to assume that your opponent has no knowledge and no ability to counter your "2 on 1" is not realistic.

If you write a MA book and your book include 100 techniques, your book should also include

- how to counter those 100 techniques.
- how to counter those counters of those 100 techniques.

For example, when your opponent applies "2 on 1 - arm drag" on you,

- You can push his dragging arm across and in front of his body. This will change his dragging into you use his leading arm to jam his back arm. This will also prevent him from moving behind you.
- He can then borrow your pushing/jamming force, spin his body, and take you down.
- You can then ...

Not sure if Aikido will get into this level of training - technique, counter, counter to counter.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,733
Reaction score
5,626
If you learn a technique, you should also learn how to counter that technique. IMO, to assume that your opponent has no knowledge and no ability to counter your "2 on 1" is not realistic.

If you write a MA book and your book include 100 techniques, your book should also include

- how to counter those 100 techniques.
- how to counter those counters of those 100 techniques.

For example, when your opponent applies "2 on 1 - arm drag" on you,

- You can push his dragging arm across and in front of his body. This will change his dragging into you use his leading arm to jam his back arm. This will also prevent him from moving behind you.
- He can then borrow your pushing/jamming force, spin his body, and take you down.
- You can then ...

Not sure if Aikido will get into this level of training - technique, counter, counter to counter.

If they are not banging in to each other. (force on force)the counters would be a bit weird.
 

BrendanF

Blue Belt
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
273
Reaction score
83
Actually no. My understanding is that the concept of Aiki, does not appear in Daito Ryu scrolls or history before the 1920s. This was around the same time that Takeda Sokaku and his top student Ueshiba were spending a lot of time with an Omoto priest. Deguchi Onisaburo was spending quite a bit of time with both them. This is around the same time that the concept in term of Aiki began to appear. Whether not this is a religious expression/concept is debatable. But the term itself did not really appear until that time. Aiki is not a specified martial application. It literally means, "joining of the spirit".

I don't know the specifics regarding the scrolls, however the Daito ryu party line is that Aiki is a DR concept that absolutely predates Ueshiba.

And yes, I'm aware of what the kanji mean (not exactly what you said, but whatever), and of the (aikikai) aikido application of the term. I was trying to illustrate the fact that this interpretation/application differs from the application the term has at it's source.

No, I didn't say it's 'a specified martial application' - I said it's a conditioned state of 'being', that has specifically martial applications. What that means is that in the 'aiki-heavy' lines of DR, it is considered to be an internally conditioned body, the result of specific type of tanren, which creates an ability to apply kuzushi on contact. This is in many ways similar to Taiji, Baguazhang and the other internal Chinese martial arts - and also what supposedly creates the unique (read: nearly unbelievable) look to many DR techniques.

And to reiterate; I'm only repeating what I've been told by those who have significant experience with both Aikido and DR.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
Aikido uses a lot of "floating hand" that you use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms, twist his arm, and force him to flip. IMO, this will give your opponent one free hand that can do a lot of counters on you.

For example, at 0.18, his opponent's left hand can hook punch at his head. What's the Aikido solution for that free arm?


It is a concern, but ...

Done at speed, the opponent has less chance, especially when he will be defending against the strike to the chest and knee to the groin. And then you see the pull off balance and wrist lock into a throw (or a break of the wrist), from a position where the opponent's arm cannot be brought into play.


To move away from your opponent's back hand can be a good solution. But when you throw your opponent, that distance will become shorter again.

One general solution for this is to use "tucking", you guide your opponent's free arm away from your entering path. But if you use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms, you don't have another free hand to do that "tucking".


What if your opponent has 2 daggers, one in each hand? Is it real a good idea to use both hands to control one of your opponent's arms and give him one free arm?

I think most of what you will see in Aikido will be ensuring the opponents arms and legs are put in a position of no physical chance to be used offensively. Of course IF he has a dagger in each hand, maybe there will be a chance to get another arm/hand in play, and a different defense IF possible would be necessary. But if your attack or defense pulls the opponent in such a way as I mentioned, when the video shows him doing that, so you control one hand, and the other arm is unable to be used. But that is only IF he has two daggers. :p :D
 

wab25

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
938
Reaction score
730
Just thought I would put in my two cents here. For some context, I have been studying Danzan Ryu Jujitsu for about 20 years now. For the last 4-5 I have been training Kenkojuku style Shotokan Karate as well. The dojo I rent space out of, primarily teaches Aikiko, but they have a lot of other Japanese arts their as well, including Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu. I get the opportunity to get on the mat and train with the Aikido guys quite a bit... and unfortunately to a lesser extent with the Daito Ryu guys as well.

My take on Aikido is similar to what many have mentioned here. It is a finishing art, as in you already know some other arts before starting Aikido. As you move through the Aikido patterns, they are quite lengthy, but do offer many opportunities to apply other arts to short circuit the Aikido pattern. However, as the student, you need to recognize where these places are. The pattern will open targets to punch or kick and provide places to enter for a number of different throws. The more you bring to the table, the more opportunities you find. However, many students start with Aikido as their first art... and thus don't understand what they are missing. When they go on to be instructors, there is a lot to the patterns that they don't understand, in my opinion.

The patterns for Aikido, are sometimes long and intricate. They seem to require a partner who knows the other side of the pattern and who needs to be willing. To me, this is like learning ballroom dance. At first, both the lead and follow need to know where to go. In order to become a good lead, you need to work with patient follows, who know where they need to be and who can give you feedback on how to lead better. With dance, you get to a point where you can start to lead a good follow, without the follow knowing before hand what is coming up. Eventually, you can lead even a beginner, with no knowledge what so ever, into at least the basic moves and more as you get better as a lead. However, at the beginning you need the cooperation.

I feel that a lot of time, people think Aikido is about the end of the technique... where the guy falls down or taps out. In my opinion, this is due to the lack of other martial arts experience of the student. By the time Aikido gets to the "make him fall down" part, you have already passed many opportunities to punch, kick, lock, take down or throw the guy. You didn't, because you were following the pattern. Aikido is about the very first part of the technique. Can you immediately off balance and compromise your opponent and can you keep it? If you can, you can use it to set up any number of much more effective techniques to end the confrontation.

So why the long pattern? I look at it like adding a really long lever to a small precise movement. By adding a really long lever, you can work on making the movement slowly, applying the right pressure at the right time, in the right direction. As you get better, the lever can be shortened. Eventually, no lever is needed.

The question is: Is it effective? In all the rolling / sparring I have never been able to apply an "Aikido" technique to my opponent. I have however, been able to better employ certain principles. It has helped me develop a better feel in some cases, helped me break their balance and or structure easier in other cases and even develop more leverage. However, remember I said I was a DZR guy? Well, the Shotokan has also given me improvements in all those same areas. So has the bits of BJJ I have worked on, as well as the Daito Ryu... All of them, have helped me improve my DZR. All of them have shown me things my Sensei has been pointing out to me for years. Here is the thing though, each one of these arts has given me different insights and different improvements to the same techniques and to the same principles.

So, is Aikido the best way to learn these extra finishing bits? Is it the fastest way? I don't know. I know its not the only way. I know it has shown me things that other arts have not, though that may be due the denseness of the student, in my case. Comparing it with Daito Ryu, I find Daito Ryu to do the same thing, only more directly... in an opposite kind of way. (one enters when the other yields and vice versa) I find Daito Ryu to be a bit more complete for a combat art.

In the end, I find Aikido does bring some things to the table, if you look at it right. Its about that initial contact... not the finishing of your opponent. The long complicated patterns, are levers to make certain motions much bigger for the student to see and feel. That pattern also provides many opportunities to short circuit and finish the opponent, but these are left for the student to find and fill (or bring with them). Just like in dancing, those long patterns, with a cooperating partner, will allow you to develop a feel for what the other guy is doing... you will feel him resist, much sooner. Some of the patterns have that resistance bit built into them, slowed down and magnified, so that you can practice dealing with it.

In the end, I think everyone has to evaluate how they spend their allotted training time. Aikido has a lot of things to offer, but its not for everyone. It also helps if you know what it is giving you and what it is not. But that is true for all arts.

Anyway, these are just my opinions based on the experiences I have had. Would I recommend it for a guy getting ready for an MMA match or going out to be a LEO? No. Would I recommend it to an experience martial artist looking to fine tune some things, or who might be looking to get off their current plateau? In this case, it would be worth trying out. If you just enjoy it for the sake of enjoying it or want exercise or to work on range of motion... sure go for it.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
26,626
Reaction score
8,079
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Just thought I would put in my two cents here. For some context, I have been studying Danzan Ryu Jujitsu for about 20 years now. For the last 4-5 I have been training Kenkojuku style Shotokan Karate as well. The dojo I rent space out of, primarily teaches Aikiko, but they have a lot of other Japanese arts their as well, including Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu. I get the opportunity to get on the mat and train with the Aikido guys quite a bit... and unfortunately to a lesser extent with the Daito Ryu guys as well.

My take on Aikido is similar to what many have mentioned here. It is a finishing art, as in you already know some other arts before starting Aikido. As you move through the Aikido patterns, they are quite lengthy, but do offer many opportunities to apply other arts to short circuit the Aikido pattern. However, as the student, you need to recognize where these places are. The pattern will open targets to punch or kick and provide places to enter for a number of different throws. The more you bring to the table, the more opportunities you find. However, many students start with Aikido as their first art... and thus don't understand what they are missing. When they go on to be instructors, there is a lot to the patterns that they don't understand, in my opinion.

The patterns for Aikido, are sometimes long and intricate. They seem to require a partner who knows the other side of the pattern and who needs to be willing. To me, this is like learning ballroom dance. At first, both the lead and follow need to know where to go. In order to become a good lead, you need to work with patient follows, who know where they need to be and who can give you feedback on how to lead better. With dance, you get to a point where you can start to lead a good follow, without the follow knowing before hand what is coming up. Eventually, you can lead even a beginner, with no knowledge what so ever, into at least the basic moves and more as you get better as a lead. However, at the beginning you need the cooperation.

I feel that a lot of time, people think Aikido is about the end of the technique... where the guy falls down or taps out. In my opinion, this is due to the lack of other martial arts experience of the student. By the time Aikido gets to the "make him fall down" part, you have already passed many opportunities to punch, kick, lock, take down or throw the guy. You didn't, because you were following the pattern. Aikido is about the very first part of the technique. Can you immediately off balance and compromise your opponent and can you keep it? If you can, you can use it to set up any number of much more effective techniques to end the confrontation.

So why the long pattern? I look at it like adding a really long lever to a small precise movement. By adding a really long lever, you can work on making the movement slowly, applying the right pressure at the right time, in the right direction. As you get better, the lever can be shortened. Eventually, no lever is needed.

The question is: Is it effective? In all the rolling / sparring I have never been able to apply an "Aikido" technique to my opponent. I have however, been able to better employ certain principles. It has helped me develop a better feel in some cases, helped me break their balance and or structure easier in other cases and even develop more leverage. However, remember I said I was a DZR guy? Well, the Shotokan has also given me improvements in all those same areas. So has the bits of BJJ I have worked on, as well as the Daito Ryu... All of them, have helped me improve my DZR. All of them have shown me things my Sensei has been pointing out to me for years. Here is the thing though, each one of these arts has given me different insights and different improvements to the same techniques and to the same principles.

So, is Aikido the best way to learn these extra finishing bits? Is it the fastest way? I don't know. I know its not the only way. I know it has shown me things that other arts have not, though that may be due the denseness of the student, in my case. Comparing it with Daito Ryu, I find Daito Ryu to do the same thing, only more directly... in an opposite kind of way. (one enters when the other yields and vice versa) I find Daito Ryu to be a bit more complete for a combat art.

In the end, I find Aikido does bring some things to the table, if you look at it right. Its about that initial contact... not the finishing of your opponent. The long complicated patterns, are levers to make certain motions much bigger for the student to see and feel. That pattern also provides many opportunities to short circuit and finish the opponent, but these are left for the student to find and fill (or bring with them). Just like in dancing, those long patterns, with a cooperating partner, will allow you to develop a feel for what the other guy is doing... you will feel him resist, much sooner. Some of the patterns have that resistance bit built into them, slowed down and magnified, so that you can practice dealing with it.

In the end, I think everyone has to evaluate how they spend their allotted training time. Aikido has a lot of things to offer, but its not for everyone. It also helps if you know what it is giving you and what it is not. But that is true for all arts.

Anyway, these are just my opinions based on the experiences I have had. Would I recommend it for a guy getting ready for an MMA match or going out to be a LEO? No. Would I recommend it to an experience martial artist looking to fine tune some things, or who might be looking to get off their current plateau? In this case, it would be worth trying out. If you just enjoy it for the sake of enjoying it or want exercise or to work on range of motion... sure go for it.
Nice write-up. I like your focus on the beginning of the Aikido pattern. Even though NGA is more direct (and arguably a lot less "aiki"), that's still an important point in our grappling. First touch is meant to break structure in some meaningful way. If it doesn't it's time to NOT continue that pattern...that's what strikes, hard grappling, etc. are for.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,637
Reaction score
2,702
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Your opponent's free hand that can punch on your shoulder that can interrupt almost all your take downs. This is why I have serious concern about my opponent's free hand.

 

wab25

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Sep 22, 2017
Messages
938
Reaction score
730
Your opponent's free hand that can punch on your shoulder that can interrupt almost all your take downs. This is why I have serious concern about my opponent's free hand.

I find it interesting that the video you presented, clearly shows your guy shifting to a 2 on 1 approach, using both his hands on the other guys left arm, 1 second in... leaving the other guys right hand free. He does it again even more clearly at the 8 second mark. The other guys right hand is free, and has a direct path to the jaw. Why doesn't he throw the right hook and drop him? First, its a demo and looks bad... Second, for the same reason those hip throws work... he has broken the other guys balance and posture, thus removing meaningful power in the free hand. At this point, you can do whatever you want to the guy, up until he regains his posture and balance, then you better not have any openings for him to exploit, no matter what your art.
 
Top