Desperation

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PhotonGuy

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Which means that he would have seen other ikkyus go through this before getting there himself.
Perhaps, as I said, I don't know the exact details. All I know is that he said something along the lines of, "my sensei tells you when you will test and God help you if you disagree. Getting a black belt isn't just about being skilled enough it's also about having patience so he requires patience in addition to skill."
 
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PhotonGuy

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What I have said, many times, and will say again for those who struggle to understand, is that the belt should not be your primary motivation, and that if it is, you should change your focus. Do you understand this time?
And what I have said, many times, and I will say again is that the belt is not my primary focus, my primary focus is the standards (the skill and ability) required for the belt, and meeting those standards.
 
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PhotonGuy

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No, they don't.

Speed limits are about revenue enhancement, not safety. The number is pulled from the collective rectum of the lawmakers.

There is a 4-lane divided highway running east-west from my home. It is lightly traveled. The speed limit is 65MPH.
There is a 4-lane divided highway running north-south from my home. It is HEAVILY traveled. The speed limit is 75MPH.
The terrain they cross is pretty much identical.
This is just what I was taught when I was taking driver's ed, that they consult with engineers when deciding what speed limits to put on what roads. Its part of the three E's, Education, Engineering, and Enforcement.
Explain to us all how it's safer to go faster on the packed highway than on the wide open.
Is the lightly traveled highway in a more residential area?
No they don't. They arbitrarily declare that all Interstates will have X for a speedlimit, all US highways will have Y, and so on.
So you're saying they more or less just roll dice when deciding speed limits.
Great. So you want stupid, arbitrary laws written by people who know nothing about the subject. #facepalm.
Written by people who consult with those who know all about the subject. :)
 
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PhotonGuy

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So the sensei openly stated to someone, that a particular student has the skills to justify promotion to black belt but the promotion is being withheld until the student learns patience? Because that kind of open statement is what would be needed in order for this to simply be known at the school.
As I said, I don't know the exact details about how the dojo was run other than what I said at post #61.
Ive gotta be honest, I do not believe it. I suspect you are inflating this in your mind into something that it isnt.
You can believe, or not believe, whatever you want.
 

Rich Parsons

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I do. But there's only so much enlightenment that can happen on a web forum.
If one is conscious of the Unconscious , then is the Unconscious conscious of the Conscious.
If the Conscious is conscious of the Unconscious being conscious of the Conscious is the unconscious also conscious of this?
 

Steve

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Are there much dojos in your area? You don't find them that much in rural areas.
Oh yeah. Several TKD Dojangs, a couple of karate schools, BJJ, a Sambo school, and Judo is an intramural sport in the schools and so pretty popular.
 

Dirty Dog

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And what I have said, many times, and I will say again is that the belt is not my primary focus, my primary focus is the standards (the skill and ability) required for the belt, and meeting those standards.
Have you ever heard of the concept of the generic "you"? Not everything is about you...
 

Hot Lunch

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And what I have said, many times, and I will say again is that the belt is not my primary focus, my primary focus is the standards (the skill and ability) required for the belt, and meeting those standards.
But you agree that your friend is being wronged for not being allowed to test, despite meeting the standards to do so?

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the belt. Or, more accurately, the rank.

I have rank goals myself. And, I recently switched from a style that has renshi/kyoshi/hanshi belts to a style that uses the same black belt (no dan bars or anything) for all dan ranks, so no. It's not the belt. It's the rank.
 

Flying Crane

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As I said, I don't know the exact details about how the dojo was run other than what I said at post #61.

You can believe, or not believe, whatever you want.
I think we should contact the sensei and have him weigh in here. We are having a discussion about how he runs his school and he has been given no opportunity for input, after all. Since it is his reputation being maligned by you on the internet, I think he deserves the chance to offer his perspective and reasons for why he does what he does.

Do you have contact information for him?
 

drop bear

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Perhaps, as I said, I don't know the exact details. All I know is that he said something along the lines of, "my sensei tells you when you will test and God help you if you disagree. Getting a black belt isn't just about being skilled enough it's also about having patience so he requires patience in addition to skill."
In a purely practical sense. If your black belts are screaming duchebags. That is bad branding for the school.

Or he just doesn't want a certain mentality around him in that capacity. A lot of martial arts schools are unashamedly social qliques and have a bunch of behavioural standards.
 

drop bear

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I think we should contact the sensei and have him weigh in here. We are having a discussion about how he runs his school and he has been given no opportunity for input, after all. Since it is his reputation being maligned by you on the internet, I think he deserves the chance to offer his perspective and reasons for why he does what he does.

Do you have contact information for him?

And if someone goes after the guy for whatever perceived reason?

You have your anonymity.
 

drop bear

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And what I have said, many times, and I will say again is that the belt is not my primary focus, my primary focus is the standards (the skill and ability) required for the belt, and meeting those standards.

Do MMA.
 

Hot Lunch

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In a purely practical sense. If your black belts are screaming duchebags. That is bad branding for the school.

Or he just doesn't want a certain mentality around him in that capacity. A lot of martial arts schools are unashamedly social qliques and have a bunch of behavioural standards.
If the instructors are putting their students through more games and headache for the black belt, the effect is probably going to be the opposite of what they intended. The harder you have to work for something, the more likely you are to get a superiority complex because of it.
 

drop bear

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If the instructors are putting their students through more games and headache for the black belt, the effect is probably going to be the opposite of what they intended. The harder you have to work for something, the more likely you are to get a superiority complex because of it.

I don't think so. I think that has a lot more to do with class culture.

I know some schools that have really tough requirements to grade. And produce pro fighters (which is really tough) And don't have that elitist issue.
 

Steve

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Cadillac pulled the harsh lines for the rear end and tail lights out of history.
They were negative for cost
They were negative for fuel economy.
Someone thought they looked cool.
..
Some workshops happen for how displays look, yet is usually comes down to what the Interior chief likes. And if they other vehicle that looks a lot alike yet has a different brand chief for interior the displays could look totally different for no rim or reason other than to be different sometimes.
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Did you know in the early 90's there were over 78 specific designs for radiator caps and it was over 120 for windshield wiper fluid caps.
They dropped brand logos.
they standardized to the icons.
They created a standard opening even if the bottle or cooling was different size or shape.
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So give people a chance and they will create something different.
Sometimes because they think it si cool.
Many times to justify why the company is paying them money.
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In the late 90's we rolled out a new Electronic PRNDL Display.
It was across Three or more brands and multiple vehicle lines in three plants.
The First vehicle that changed the first year one Plant Manager thought it was cool to be quicker and newer.
One was not so sure, why he didn't like and they last hated.
We had arguments and I was ordered to change it when it was intrinsic to the new communication protocol being used.
I told them no. We had meetings with my management, and we got to some senior level executives and they told it was too late to change.
Just live with it.
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The next year when when another changed for mid cycle updates, the plant the loved had a new plant manager and the new one hated the fast ones.
The one that was indifferent loved them all. Including the slower one.
The one that hated the faster wanted them all changed to be the same , and was now complaining about the slow one.
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Note the message speed were 250 ms for slow and 100 ms for the faster.
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I had a change required by law for emissions and was sitting on the phone for the review board, and listened to an hour or so past my time slot about changes for color and fit and finish, and when they got to me they did not want to discuss changing the SW and Calibrations which would be required to meet emission certification to sell the vehicles. There had been a previous update sent to the plant for some similar changes in a different area. They had ignored that.
So I put in a Stop Build, Stop Ship and Stop Sell , and shut the plant down.
Why? Because people were being arbitrary .
They could not smell, touch, or taste the SW and calibration changes so it was hard for them to understand even when it was their job.
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So yes sometimes it is just because someone wanted it that way.
Hey, I'm not sure how to interpret your emoji reaction, but it doesn't seem like you understand my response. I figure it's worth another try.

I understand that you're trying to back your friend up. He made a comment that says more about his opinion of politicians than about how speed limits are determined, and you wanted to support him. I get it. So, you shared some war stories that you think help make his point. But when I say I saw it all in there, I wasn't being sarcastic. In your stories, there's some science, some art, and some politics (small "p", organizational politics... not big "P" politics). The main point, though, is that none of this is arbitrary. Arbitrary suggests that it's random... just a flip of a coin. The reality of any decisions like this is that they are seldom arbitrary, and the better you understand the relative influence of the science, the art, and the politics of a situation, the more predictable the decisions become (and the more influence you can have over the outcome).

So, simply put, what I was getting at is that high level decisions are seldom all that simple. The sausage making process is messy... a sausage fest, if you will. :D So, maybe I didn't explain what I mean by science, art, and politics well enough.

What I mean by science are things that are objective and supported by data. This looks different depending on your field. In big "P" politics, it's going to be different than if you work in a large government agency, a large corporation, a small corporation, a non-profit, or anything else. But science is simply meant to stand in for that objective information. In your anecdotes, you very clearly talked about the science of designing a car.

Art represents feelings and emotions... things that may be informed by the science, or may just as often conflict with the science. In this bucket are things like preference (two things roughly equal, I like to do it one way and you may prefer the other). You mention this kind of thing pretty often in your stories. Art is very important in some fields, particularly if that field involves customer support. In the automotive industry, I expect how a car makes the customer feel is important... I mean, I recall some conversations around here about what is and isn't a Mustang. That's a part of decision making, for sure.

And then politics... and again, I'm talking about organizational politics. And this is really just a label for organizational interests. What pressures are exerted on a decision maker. Some common factors can be statutory influences, risk (individual and organizational), hierarchical influences, historical precedence, organizational culture (and this can lead to the personality of an organization... whether components interact competitively or collaboratively... whether information is siloed or shared, etc). Once again, your stories had elements of politics in them, too.

So, all that to say, you wrote a lot of words to share some stories that you intended (and may even believe) represented arbitrary decision making. But what you really did was share stories that illustrate the point that decisions... even bad ones... are never arbitrary, but are in fact made by some combination of three factors: art, science, and politics.

I hope this helps. This is the sort of thing that most people don't need or even want to know. It's pretty boring stuff, really. But when you start to get into upper management and executive level decision making, the better you understand it, the more successful and influential you will be. And if you are also highly competent and effective in your role you can exert a lot of constructive influence within the organization.
 

Rich Parsons

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Hey, I'm not sure how to interpret your emoji reaction, but it doesn't seem like you understand my response. I figure it's worth another try.

I understand that you're trying to back your friend up. He made a comment that says more about his opinion of politicians than about how speed limits are determined, and you wanted to support him. I get it. So, you shared some war stories that you think help make his point. But when I say I saw it all in there, I wasn't being sarcastic. In your stories, there's some science, some art, and some politics (small "p", organizational politics... not big "P" politics). The main point, though, is that none of this is arbitrary. Arbitrary suggests that it's random... just a flip of a coin. The reality of any decisions like this is that they are seldom arbitrary, and the better you understand the relative influence of the science, the art, and the politics of a situation, the more predictable the decisions become (and the more influence you can have over the outcome).

So, simply put, what I was getting at is that high level decisions are seldom all that simple. The sausage making process is messy... a sausage fest, if you will. :D So, maybe I didn't explain what I mean by science, art, and politics well enough.

What I mean by science are things that are objective and supported by data. This looks different depending on your field. In big "P" politics, it's going to be different than if you work in a large government agency, a large corporation, a small corporation, a non-profit, or anything else. But science is simply meant to stand in for that objective information. In your anecdotes, you very clearly talked about the science of designing a car.

Art represents feelings and emotions... things that may be informed by the science, or may just as often conflict with the science. In this bucket are things like preference (two things roughly equal, I like to do it one way and you may prefer the other). You mention this kind of thing pretty often in your stories. Art is very important in some fields, particularly if that field involves customer support. In the automotive industry, I expect how a car makes the customer feel is important... I mean, I recall some conversations around here about what is and isn't a Mustang. That's a part of decision making, for sure.

And then politics... and again, I'm talking about organizational politics. And this is really just a label for organizational interests. What pressures are exerted on a decision maker. Some common factors can be statutory influences, risk (individual and organizational), hierarchical influences, historical precedence, organizational culture (and this can lead to the personality of an organization... whether components interact competitively or collaboratively... whether information is siloed or shared, etc). Once again, your stories had elements of politics in them, too.

So, all that to say, you wrote a lot of words to share some stories that you intended (and may even believe) represented arbitrary decision making. But what you really did was share stories that illustrate the point that decisions... even bad ones... are never arbitrary, but are in fact made by some combination of three factors: art, science, and politics.

I hope this helps. This is the sort of thing that most people don't need or even want to know. It's pretty boring stuff, really. But when you start to get into upper management and executive level decision making, the better you understand it, the more successful and influential you will be. And if you are also highly competent and effective in your role you can exert a lot of constructive influence within the organization.

You missed the points - Clearly

They ignored science for what they "Thought" looked better.
Subjective not Objective.
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The message rates for updates on Displays.
Those Plant Manager not involved with design at all but thought their position meant they could force changes for they Subjectively wanted.
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Once again Subjective and Not Objective.
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You clearly see something that supports your points , and totally ignore the data I presented.
You claim things about me, say I presented Objective . Yes I used Objective, but that was to fight those higher up using Subjective.
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If you think you should report me, just remember you implied and said I presented something that supported your points.
You put typed words out there I did not write, and implied I had meant them.
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So if you disagree I guess it goes both ways. You presented nothing to prove these subjective points that were argued by me (* To the detriment of my career - I can add *) with objective data.
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I saw a comment.
I replied.
I was defending anyone, they can defend themselves for what they post.
Not my business. and please stop assuming things about me and posting them.
.
 

Steve

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You missed the points - Clearly

They ignored science for what they "Thought" looked better.
Subjective not Objective.
.
The message rates for updates on Displays.
Those Plant Manager not involved with design at all but thought their position meant they could force changes for they Subjectively wanted.
.
Once again Subjective and Not Objective.
.
You clearly see something that supports your points , and totally ignore the data I presented.
You claim things about me, say I presented Objective . Yes I used Objective, but that was to fight those higher up using Subjective.
.
If you think you should report me, just remember you implied and said I presented something that supported your points.
You put typed words out there I did not write, and implied I had meant them.
.
So if you disagree I guess it goes both ways. You presented nothing to prove these subjective points that were argued by me (* To the detriment of my career - I can add *) with objective data.
.
I saw a comment.
I replied.
I was defending anyone, they can defend themselves for what they post.
Not my business. and please stop assuming things about me and posting them.
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Sorry. I got your points. You shared some examples of times when you think that decisions were arbitrary. And I understand why you're saying it. You're not subtle.

I don't think you got my points. And your post above pretty much illustrates that. I don't disagree with you. You told some stories from your own experience. What's to agree or disagree with? What's clear to me is that, while you seem to have been involved in high level decision making, you don't really understand it. And that's not uncommon. It's a shame, because you might have been more influential if you did.

So, what I tried to do was to explain something to you that you don't really seem to understand. And it doesn't sound like you're ready for that, which is just fine. I thought I'd take another stab at laying it out for you in more detail, but if you're aren't ready, willing, or able, I'm cool with it. I hope you have a great weekend.
 
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