Desperation

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mograph

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See post #34

People shouldn't be commended for not being fair.

Patience is all fine and dandy as long as you also realize that time is precious.

Well it does make sense to want to earn a black belt before you're 105, doesn't it?

All the more reason to get what you need to get done when you need to get it done.

You've said so yourself, you're mortal. You only have so much time in this world. So patience is good as long as you realize that and make sure to get done what you need to get done while you still can. Makes sense doesn't it?
Wow. You're so attached to being right that you learned nothing from my post: you spent all your time trying to justify your position.

Good luck with your practice.
 

Flying Crane

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I don't know the exact details, all I know was what this fellow was telling me about how his sensei requires not only skill but also patience for students who want to earn black belts. I can understand having minimal time requirements, to a reasonable extent, but having a student wait indefinitely before being promoted (even if they've got the skill) because you want the student to be patient is unacceptable.
How do you know he has got the skill? Because he told you so? You think the student is the best judge of his own skills? That seems to be your main argument.
 
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Hot Lunch

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I don't know the exact details, all I know was what this fellow was telling me about how his sensei requires not only skill but also patience for students who want to earn black belts.
Which means that he would have seen other ikkyus go through this before getting there himself.
 

Dirty Dog

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You mean the whole recently locked thread where you've been saying that?
If your claim were true, you'd have no difficulty finding an actual quote. You won't find one, because that is not anything I have ever said.

What I have said, many times, and will say again for those who struggle to understand, is that the belt should not be your primary motivation, and that if it is, you should change your focus. Do you understand this time?
 

Dirty Dog

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Usually, whenever the government passes laws they consult with people in various fields of expertise.
No, they don't.
That's how they know, for instance, what speed limits to put on roads.
Speed limits are about revenue enhancement, not safety. The number is pulled from the collective rectum of the lawmakers.

There is a 4-lane divided highway running east-west from my home. It is lightly traveled. The speed limit is 65MPH.
There is a 4-lane divided highway running north-south from my home. It is HEAVILY traveled. The speed limit is 75MPH.
The terrain they cross is pretty much identical.

Explain to us all how it's safer to go faster on the packed highway than on the wide open.
Lawmakers will consult with people, in this case engineers, who know all about what a safe speed to drive on a particular road would be.
No they don't. They arbitrarily declare that all Interstates will have X for a speedlimit, all US highways will have Y, and so on.
And that's just one example. That same principle could be applied when passing laws to govern the martial arts.
Great. So you want stupid, arbitrary laws written by people who know nothing about the subject. #facepalm.
 

Steve

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No, they don't.

Speed limits are about revenue enhancement, not safety. The number is pulled from the collective rectum of the lawmakers.

There is a 4-lane divided highway running east-west from my home. It is lightly traveled. The speed limit is 65MPH.
There is a 4-lane divided highway running north-south from my home. It is HEAVILY traveled. The speed limit is 75MPH.
The terrain they cross is pretty much identical.

Explain to us all how it's safer to go faster on the packed highway than on the wide open.

No they don't. They arbitrarily declare that all Interstates will have X for a speedlimit, all US highways will have Y, and so on.

Great. So you want stupid, arbitrary laws written by people who know nothing about the subject. #facepalm.
I'm really interested in reading more about how all laws are arbitrary, how lawmakers don't consult with experts, and how speed limits are pulled from thin air. Something objective would be nice, from a credible source.

I live in a rapidly growing semi-rural area. This happens to be a topic I'm pretty interested in, and there is a deep well of information around the subject of speed limits and planning roads and highways.

Here's a link to an Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) site that provides a pretty thorough overview of speed, including some of the considerations that go into determining speed limits.


You can also find some good articles on the Institute for Transportation Engineers site, like this one: Setting Speed Limits

I can't find the study now, which frustrates me a little, but there was something that came out a couple of years ago that really dug into the increase nationally in pedestrian fatalities, suggesting that it has to do with the way that we design our roads and combine roads for accessing local destinations and the roads that are for high speed traffic. We have a lot of that in my area, and it makes the roads very dangerous. When you have people turning into and out of side streets onto a road with a speed limit of 50 mph, for example, or roads where the speed limit is 45 or higher and you have a lot of pedestrians... those are both dangerous and lead to higher rates of accidents.

Anyway, all that to say, your assertion that there is no science behind speed limits is inconsistent with what I've seen. Absent evidence to the contrary, I'm pretty sure you're just doing what you accuse the lawmakers of doing.
 

Rich Parsons

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Speed Limits in Michigan.
...
Many of the roads were designed for 75 MPH speed limits and were rolled back to 55.
Many of those 55 zones were kept as speed traps rolling into metro or city limits while on an expressway.
.
Yet with the State Speed limit for Constructions was 60 MPH unless workers present and then 45.
Some of those 55 zones improved traffic flow with construction knocking it down from 3 to 2 lanes yet moving at 60 mphs.
.
Seems non statistical .
.
Unposted rural roads are 55
Unposted city are 25
They run into each other over some imaginary line.
No transitions.
Some / many places have them.
Yet within my normal driving I know three or four.
.
Also Which state has non reciprocity for Manufacturing Plates and only Manufacturing Plates?
.
Why is it illegal in Florida to drive on the expressway slow with hazards , and yet when forced to go below the minimum speed in every other state I know it is required by law.
In Florida Old people would drive 25 in the left hand lane of two lane expressway and say they had their hazards on so it was safe. Except for all the vehicles dodging them and hitting other.
.
Why is some states require head lights on when the windshield wiper is on?
And many states don't?
.
Why do some states still have the basic speed law on the books? Day light, clear skies little to no traffic . Go the speed you feel comfortable going.
I know more and more have been removing that law the last 15 years. I haven't kept track.
.

Things vary from place to place.
 

Steve

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If your claim were true, you'd have no difficulty finding an actual quote. You won't find one, because that is not anything I have ever said.

What I have said, many times, and will say again for those who struggle to understand, is that the belt should not be your primary motivation, and that if it is, you should change your focus. Do you understand this time?

Out of curiosity, I went back and read the recent posts in that thread. Since you made it a thing.

You said, Your focus (from what you've posted) seems to be on the belt. I personally think that's a bad idea. It's something I expect to see in beginners and children but not in anybody who I'd consider testing for BB.

You said, When you were in therapy, did your therapist ever suggest that maybe it was time for you to get over it and move on? A little off the thread, but wow Thats really inappropriate.

You said, You may be regarded as shallow and superficial if your focus is on the belt, though.

You said, And if their motivation is a belt, that's fairly shallow. you didnt start walking back your post to say primary motivation until the last page when I think you must have realized you were being unreasonable.
 

Steve

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Speed Limits in Michigan.
...
Many of the roads were designed for 75 MPH speed limits and were rolled back to 55.
Many of those 55 zones were kept as speed traps rolling into metro or city limits while on an expressway.
.
Yet with the State Speed limit for Constructions was 60 MPH unless workers present and then 45.
Some of those 55 zones improved traffic flow with construction knocking it down from 3 to 2 lanes yet moving at 60 mphs.
.
Seems non statistical .
.
Unposted rural roads are 55
Unposted city are 25
They run into each other over some imaginary line.
No transitions.
Some / many places have them.
Yet within my normal driving I know three or four.
.
Also Which state has non reciprocity for Manufacturing Plates and only Manufacturing Plates?
.
Why is it illegal in Florida to drive on the expressway slow with hazards , and yet when forced to go below the minimum speed in every other state I know it is required by law.
In Florida Old people would drive 25 in the left hand lane of two lane expressway and say they had their hazards on so it was safe. Except for all the vehicles dodging them and hitting other.
.
Why is some states require head lights on when the windshield wiper is on?
And many states don't?
.
Why do some states still have the basic speed law on the books? Day light, clear skies little to no traffic . Go the speed you feel comfortable going.
I know more and more have been removing that law the last 15 years. I haven't kept track.
.

Things vary from place to place.
Things do indeed vary from state to state.

You worked in the automotive industry, iirc. Cars vary in design quite significantly. Does that mean they are entirely arbitrary? Do engineers pull the design of a model out of their rears? Im guessing that its a mix of a lot of different things that influence the final outcome. Some of it is science, some art, and some politics. My guess, at least.
 

Rich Parsons

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Cadillac pulled the harsh lines for the rear end and tail lights out of history.
They were negative for cost
They were negative for fuel economy.
Someone thought they looked cool.
..
Some workshops happen for how displays look, yet is usually comes down to what the Interior chief likes. And if they other vehicle that looks a lot alike yet has a different brand chief for interior the displays could look totally different for no rim or reason other than to be different sometimes.
.
Did you know in the early 90's there were over 78 specific designs for radiator caps and it was over 120 for windshield wiper fluid caps.
They dropped brand logos.
they standardized to the icons.
They created a standard opening even if the bottle or cooling was different size or shape.
.
So give people a chance and they will create something different.
Sometimes because they think it si cool.
Many times to justify why the company is paying them money.
.
In the late 90's we rolled out a new Electronic PRNDL Display.
It was across Three or more brands and multiple vehicle lines in three plants.
The First vehicle that changed the first year one Plant Manager thought it was cool to be quicker and newer.
One was not so sure, why he didn't like and they last hated.
We had arguments and I was ordered to change it when it was intrinsic to the new communication protocol being used.
I told them no. We had meetings with my management, and we got to some senior level executives and they told it was too late to change.
Just live with it.
.
The next year when when another changed for mid cycle updates, the plant the loved had a new plant manager and the new one hated the fast ones.
The one that was indifferent loved them all. Including the slower one.
The one that hated the faster wanted them all changed to be the same , and was now complaining about the slow one.
.
Note the message speed were 250 ms for slow and 100 ms for the faster.
.
I had a change required by law for emissions and was sitting on the phone for the review board, and listened to an hour or so past my time slot about changes for color and fit and finish, and when they got to me they did not want to discuss changing the SW and Calibrations which would be required to meet emission certification to sell the vehicles. There had been a previous update sent to the plant for some similar changes in a different area. They had ignored that.
So I put in a Stop Build, Stop Ship and Stop Sell , and shut the plant down.
Why? Because people were being arbitrary .
They could not smell, touch, or taste the SW and calibration changes so it was hard for them to understand even when it was their job.
.
So yes sometimes it is just because someone wanted it that way.
 

Steve

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Cadillac pulled the harsh lines for the rear end and tail lights out of history.
They were negative for cost
They were negative for fuel economy.
Someone thought they looked cool.
..
Some workshops happen for how displays look, yet is usually comes down to what the Interior chief likes. And if they other vehicle that looks a lot alike yet has a different brand chief for interior the displays could look totally different for no rim or reason other than to be different sometimes.
.
Did you know in the early 90's there were over 78 specific designs for radiator caps and it was over 120 for windshield wiper fluid caps.
They dropped brand logos.
they standardized to the icons.
They created a standard opening even if the bottle or cooling was different size or shape.
.
So give people a chance and they will create something different.
Sometimes because they think it si cool.
Many times to justify why the company is paying them money.
.
In the late 90's we rolled out a new Electronic PRNDL Display.
It was across Three or more brands and multiple vehicle lines in three plants.
The First vehicle that changed the first year one Plant Manager thought it was cool to be quicker and newer.
One was not so sure, why he didn't like and they last hated.
We had arguments and I was ordered to change it when it was intrinsic to the new communication protocol being used.
I told them no. We had meetings with my management, and we got to some senior level executives and they told it was too late to change.
Just live with it.
.
The next year when when another changed for mid cycle updates, the plant the loved had a new plant manager and the new one hated the fast ones.
The one that was indifferent loved them all. Including the slower one.
The one that hated the faster wanted them all changed to be the same , and was now complaining about the slow one.
.
Note the message speed were 250 ms for slow and 100 ms for the faster.
.
I had a change required by law for emissions and was sitting on the phone for the review board, and listened to an hour or so past my time slot about changes for color and fit and finish, and when they got to me they did not want to discuss changing the SW and Calibrations which would be required to meet emission certification to sell the vehicles. There had been a previous update sent to the plant for some similar changes in a different area. They had ignored that.
So I put in a Stop Build, Stop Ship and Stop Sell , and shut the plant down.
Why? Because people were being arbitrary .
They could not smell, touch, or taste the SW and calibration changes so it was hard for them to understand even when it was their job.
.
So yes sometimes it is just because someone wanted it that way.
That was quite a journey we just went on together. As I read through your post, there was some science, some art, and some politics. Pretty much what I would expect.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Wow. You're so attached to being right that you learned nothing from my post: you spent all your time trying to justify your position.

Good luck with your practice.
You don't like being challenged?
 
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PhotonGuy

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How do you know he has got the skill? Because he told you so? You think the student is the best judge of his own skills? That seems to be your main argument.
I don't know anything about that specific student's skill, he didn't say anything about his skill level, all he said is that at his dojo his sensei might not promote a student to black belt, even if the student does have adequate skill by the sensei's standards because the sensei also wants the student to be patient.
 

Flying Crane

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I don't know anything about that specific student's skill, he didn't say anything about his skill level, all he said is that at his dojo his sensei might not promote a student to black belt, even if the student does have adequate skill by the sensei's standards because the sensei also wants the student to be patient.
So the sensei openly stated to someone, that a particular student has the skills to justify promotion to black belt but the promotion is being withheld until the student learns patience? Because that kind of open statement is what would be needed in order for this to simply be known at the school.

Ive gotta be honest, I do not believe it. I suspect you are inflating this in your mind into something that it isnt.
 
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