Point fighting

[Gerry Seymour]

People who fight have more urgency when someone grabs them by the waist like that. He lacked that urgency and that's what makes me think he had fallen back into point sparring mode and expected the clinch to be broken up. I've seen the same arm movement done in sports where the clinch is broken up. They open their arms as if to say "I'm not the one clinching"

I know I have mine, but it usually involves me coming home late from kung fu practice and me having to fight off dinosaurs and ninjas as the reason why I'm late lol. I figured that people either like dinosaurs or ninjas, so when I get the story going, they will forget that I was late

I think there's a guy on MT who tells a story of dealing with a ninja spider. The guy lost.

 

[CB Jones]

I think that's kind of the point (no pun intended). The organization you reference uses a ruleset that requires sound technique, so people use sound technique. If the ruleset were changed to favor crappy technique, most competitors would either switch to crappy technique (from a combat perspective) or eventually quit competing.

But what I disagree with is that all organizations favor crappy technique and insults martial arts

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The reason I don't like them is because they insult the martial arts and break all the rules just for a trophy

You mean they don't fit your motivation for training MA. For folks who aren't training for combat effectiveness, there's no reason why any specific ruleset would be offensive. They'd just pick the one they want to compete under and train to that.

 

[Headhunter]

I would definitely be critical of the tournament if it was run badly. I'm the one paying for it. And I have been very critical of other organizations and we no longer go to them.

And as I admitted my son's fighting was off that day and he had some stuff he needed to clean up. But as an 11 year old I feel he is at a pretty high level and could hold his own at most other Dojos.

I'm sure he could at point sparring but that's my point. Point sparring is a totally different game to continuous or full contact sparring or self defence and the problem is when people start thinking because they're good at point sparring they're good at any type of fighting in general.

 

[CB Jones]

I'm sure he could at point sparring but that's my point. Point sparring is a totally different game to continuous or full contact sparring or self defence and the problem is when people start thinking because they're good at point sparring they're good at any type of fighting in general.

90% of the sparring is continuous at the dojo he trains at.

We also have continuous sparring events at some of the tournaments that he has competed in.

 

[JR 137]

But that is sport karate....there are many other organizations.

Not every organization is like that. You are unfairly grouping everyone into one category.

I completely agree. I'm a karate guy. I did a handful of tournaments in my early 20s (AAU), and just did one last June.

I had a bad taste in my mouth from the 4 or 5 tournies back then. Points were scored that were absurd, and points weren't called that should've been. For me and against me, so I'm not whining about bad calls against me. And all it felt like was a game of tag.

I did one in June at 40 years old. Same exact thing, and I walked out feeling exactly like I did 20 years ago. Why did I compete? My 5 and 3 year old daughters wanted to see daddy compete.

I did a few knockdown tournies back then too. That was my comfort zone lol. I'd have another go at that, but my full-contact time has passed.

I in no way intended to say the point fighting was all of karate. It's only a very small part. But that small part isn't for me.

 

[thanson02]

I think that's kind of the point (no pun intended). The organization you reference uses a ruleset that requires sound technique, so people use sound technique. If the ruleset were changed to favor crappy technique, most competitors would either switch to crappy technique (from a combat perspective) or eventually quit competing.

You know, this that kind of me remind me of a situation I recently dealt with. We had a student who came in to train with us for a while who was a black belt in another system ( I think karate, he claimed to train under one of the Power Rangers) and when we're doing drills in class, he was fine. But the first time I saw him actually do full sparring, he took all the technique that he was doing in his drills, threw them out the window, and prance around the sparring ring throwing some of the sloppy as kicks I've ever seen expecting them the score points. I had somebody else take over the ring and then I pulled him aside and have a talk about what he was doing and he said that his karate instructor told him that that's how he was supposed to spar because speed was more important than technique.

I didn't want to disrespect his old instructor but I told him straight up that if that is what his teachers teaching him, he's going to get hurt if he actually has to use it and in our system that type of sparring just doesn't fly. He's studying abroad for the semester now, so I haven't seen him for a while but I'll be perfectly honest. The level of general respect that I give any martial artist when I meet them took a major hit with his Instructor when I heard that from him.

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[Gerry Seymour]

You know, this that kind of me remind me of a situation I recently dealt with. We had a student who came in to train with us for a while who was a black belt in another system ( I think karate, he claimed to train under one of the Power Rangers) and when we're doing drills in class, he was fine. But the first time I saw him actually do full sparring, he took all the technique that he was doing in his drills, threw them out the window, and prance around the sparring ring throwing some of the sloppy as kicks I've ever seen expecting them the score points. I had somebody else take over the ring and then I pulled him aside and have a talk about what he was doing and he said that his karate instructor told him that that's how he was supposed to spar because speed was more important than technique.

I didn't want to disrespect his old instructor but I told him straight up that if that is what his teachers teaching him, he's going to get hurt if he actually has to use it and in our system that type of sparring just doesn't fly. He's studying abroad for the semester now, so I haven't seen him for a while but I'll be perfectly honest. The level of general respect that I give any martial artist when I meet them took a major hit with his Instructor when I heard that from him.

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It sounds like his instructor was teaching proper technique, and also preparing folks for point sparring. I can't fault him for that distinction, as it makes them more competent for the point sparring, though it doesn't sound like he ever used technical sparring (where technique matters) to balance it. If he's not going to do that, he might be wasting their time.

 

[Buka]

Point sparring is different now than it used to be. It used to have a good deal of contact. There were tournaments where if you knocked your opponent out, you were awarded a point. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just different.

 

[Headhunter]

Point sparring is different now than it used to be. It used to have a good deal of contact. There were tournaments where if you knocked your opponent out, you were awarded a point. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just different.

I don't think that styles good either, if people wanted to fight like that they'd do boxing or kickboxing. Point fighting is something anyone should be able to do without serious risk of injury. I don't think people should be getting knocked out or busted up but just use proper technique. Using proper technique doesn't mean using power just showing the proper movements.

 

[Headhunter]

You know, this that kind of me remind me of a situation I recently dealt with. We had a student who came in to train with us for a while who was a black belt in another system ( I think karate, he claimed to train under one of the Power Rangers) and when we're doing drills in class, he was fine. But the first time I saw him actually do full sparring, he took all the technique that he was doing in his drills, threw them out the window, and prance around the sparring ring throwing some of the sloppy as kicks I've ever seen expecting them the score points. I had somebody else take over the ring and then I pulled him aside and have a talk about what he was doing and he said that his karate instructor told him that that's how he was supposed to spar because speed was more important than technique.

I didn't want to disrespect his old instructor but I told him straight up that if that is what his teachers teaching him, he's going to get hurt if he actually has to use it and in our system that type of sparring just doesn't fly. He's studying abroad for the semester now, so I haven't seen him for a while but I'll be perfectly honest. The level of general respect that I give any martial artist when I meet them took a major hit with his Instructor when I heard that from him.

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The thing is his instructor was right for point fighting these days speed is more important than technique and of course that's completely wrong that it's come to that but if his instructor was training him for point fighting he is correct on that fact. That's more of a problem with point fighting environments than the instructor. But the instructor should still have made it clear that while that's for point fighting for real fighting its not the case

 

[thanson02]

The thing is his instructor was right for point fighting these days speed is more important than technique and of course that's completely wrong that it's come to that but if his instructor was training him for point fighting he is correct on that fact. That's more of a problem with point fighting environments than the instructor. But the instructor should still have made it clear that while that's for point fighting for real fighting its not the case

If that's how point sparring works in their systems and if that's how people want to do it, that's their decision and that's fine.

I will be doing my thing over here......

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[Ironbear24]

Point fighting isn't self defense, so why pretend it is? It also isn't fighting. It is literally a game and nothing more.

It has its uses but is not the end all be all to training. Even heavier contact competitions have points and judges, those may be more combat effective but they are still not combat. That's a game as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is his instructor was right for point fighting these days speed is more important than technique and of course that's completely wrong that it's come to that but if his instructor was training him for point fighting he is correct on that fact. That's more of a problem with point fighting environments than the instructor. But the instructor should still have made it clear that while that's for point fighting for real fighting its not the case

I still have an issue with the dichotomy of the student's abilities. If he's only going to prepare them for point-fighting, then there's no reason to train them also in techniques outside of point sparring. If he's training them also for combat effectiveness, then he missed by not having them spar with that technique. He either wasted their time learning the proper technique because they won't use it (training only for point) or because he didn't train their fighting habits (no technical sparring).

Mind you, that's a quick read off the tiny bit of information given. It could be that this student was highly focused on point fighting, so was only ever trained for it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Some great things can be learned and practiced from point fighting. The explosiveness of a point fighter can really be an advantage in certain situations. Particularly with a knife in a point fighters hand. The explosiveness of a point fighter who can transition to full contact is impressive.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I still have an issue with the dichotomy of the student's abilities. If he's only going to prepare them for point-fighting, then there's no reason to train them also in techniques outside of point sparring. If he's training them also for combat effectiveness, then he missed by not having them spar with that technique. He either wasted their time learning the proper technique because they won't use it (training only for point) or because he didn't train their fighting habits (no technical sparring).

This is about where I am.

 

[thanson02]

I still have an issue with the dichotomy of the student's abilities. If he's only going to prepare them for point-fighting, then there's no reason to train them also in techniques outside of point sparring. If he's training them also for combat effectiveness, then he missed by not having them spar with that technique. He either wasted their time learning the proper technique because they won't use it (training only for point) or because he didn't train their fighting habits (no technical sparring).

Mind you, that's a quick read off the tiny bit of information given. It could be that this student was highly focused on point fighting, so was only ever trained for it.

Thank you.

 

[thanson02]

Some great things can be learned and practiced from point fighting. The explosiveness of a point fighter can really be an advantage in certain situations. Particularly with a knife in a point fighters hand. The explosiveness of a point fighter who can transition to full contact is impressive.

And this is one of those situations where point sparring makes the most sense, as well as other forms of weapons sparring. If someone takes a small aluminum bat to your head with full force, you are going down. If you get cut with a knife in a vital area, you are also going down for the count as you bleed out. But in non-weapon situations, it is different.....

I guess for me it is a question of, Does point sparring make the most sense given what your trying to teach your students to give them the skills they need if they were to actually use it? If the answer is yes, then ABSOLUTELY, go with point sparring. If not though, you need to go with something more align to full-round fighting, whether it is full-contact or semi-contact.

 

[Headhunter]

Point fighting isn't self defense, so why pretend it is? It also isn't fighting. It is literally a game and nothing more.

It has its uses but is not the end all be all to training. Even heavier contact competitions have points and judges, those may be more combat effective but they are still not combat. That's a game as well.

I don't think anyone's claiming that point fighting is self defence

 

[DanT]

Depends on the rules, my favourite was:

-it was continuous point sparring, meaning that although points counted, you don't stop after you get a point, you keep going for the entire two minute round. There is a total of three two minute rounds, and points are only tallied AFTER the third round, meaning it's not best out of three.

-1 Point for a solid strong punch or kick to the head
-2 points for a solid strong punch or kick to the body
-3 points for a sweep or clean throw or leg catch where you control the opponent for more than 3 seconds

As you can see although it was "point sparring", you had to land a solid shot to get a point, plus you weren't separated every two seconds, so plenty of exchanges happened.