Point fighting

[Headhunter]

So I was at a tournament last weekend just spectating and it got me thinking about how point fighting gets a bad rep and I understand that but it's because of the fighters not the actual competition. They're so desperate to win they'll basically break all the rules of their style so they can get some points for a trophy. Now there's no problem with that as long as the fighters know that they can't fight like that in a self defence situation. Not all fighters fight like that bouncing hands down jumping and dancing. Myself I never did that and always fought the way I always would and I had some success not huge but I did and I have seen some but I do believe point fighting has it's benefits but fighters should use it to help there overall martial arts not basically make a new style for it.

I've seen a few fighters who are great at points and think they're amazing and can beat mma fighters or kick boxers with their point style. I know in the old days the point fights were brutal but now they're not as tough and people just fight with bad habits.

Just my 2 cents on it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree that competitors could stay within "combat-effective" parameters for point fighting competitions, but why? People compete mostly for one or both of the following reasons: 1) to validate their training, 2) for the fun of trying to win.

Point fighting doesn't provide much validation, since so many of your competitors aren't behaving like someone with the intent to hurt you. And sticking to what works for actual combat will reduce your chances of winning. If I want to hit reason #1, I should find something appropriate for validation. If I want to hit reason #2, I should play the rules. If I want to do both, I need two competition formats.

Point fighting (as you are referring to it, and as I've seen it) rewards those who practice certain habits, so people pick up those habits. A change of rules (adding a subjective "effectiveness" requirement, perhaps penalizing some of the bad habits) would be an effective way to change what habits people pick up. Of course, if someone wants to compete from time to time just for the fun of it, they can do so without worrying overmuch about winning, and just keep to standard technique usage. They'll certainly validate some parts of their technique, but it's hard to determine what worked because of the rules, rather than in spite of them.

 

[CB Jones]

To me what is great about point fighting Is it's a way to bring different people and different styles somewhere so that the student can spar with them

Point fight can help with Footwork, spacing, seeing different styles.....but also they need to realize a true fight is much more violent and your opponent is not following tournament rules.


For us, #1 thing is competition and him enjoying competing, but it also gives him something to work for.

It also allows him to experience different problems (size, speed advantages, differing styles, etc...) and have to figure out ways to overcome these problems.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So I was at a tournament last weekend just spectating and it got me thinking about how point fighting gets a bad rep and I understand that but it's because of the fighters not the actual competition. They're so desperate to win they'll basically break all the rules of their style so they can get some points for a trophy. Now there's no problem with that as long as the fighters know that they can't fight like that in a self defence situation. Not all fighters fight like that bouncing hands down jumping and dancing. Myself I never did that and always fought the way I always would and I had some success not huge but I did and I have seen some but I do believe point fighting has it's benefits but fighters should use it to help there overall martial arts not basically make a new style for it.

I've seen a few fighters who are great at points and think they're amazing and can beat mma fighters or kick boxers with their point style. I know in the old days the point fights were brutal but now they're not as tough and people just fight with bad habits.

Just my 2 cents on it

There is no problem with point sparring if you hold true to the techniques of your system. But when you abandon your system's techniques and train to be good at bad techniques then your ability as a practitioner will take a hit. A practitioner must train good technique ALL THE TIME (as much as possible) You stayed true to your system which is why you didn't have a huge success, but I'm willing to be that there were multiple times where you could have taken the hit from your opponent and deliver a more powerful hit in return.

This is training bad technique for the sake of point sparring and this is where people get in trouble.

My thoughts is that the rules should be made where valid scoring can only come from the techniques of a martial system. If the technique is bad for self-defense then it shouldn't count as a score.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People compete mostly for one or both of the following reasons: 1) to validate their training, 2) for the fun of trying to win.

You can still validate training and have fun by using technique. If the judges have a trained eye for techniques then they will be able to tell just as easily as we do when the technique is not "martial"

 

[Headhunter]

There is no problem with point sparring if you hold true to the techniques of your system. But when you abandon your system's techniques and train to be good at bad techniques then your ability as a practitioner will take a hit. A practitioner must train good technique ALL THE TIME (as much as possible) You stayed true to your system which is why you didn't have a huge success, but I'm willing to be that there were multiple times where you could have taken the hit from your opponent and deliver a more powerful hit in return.

This is training bad technique for the sake of point sparring and this is where people get in trouble.

My thoughts is that the rules should be made where valid scoring can only come from the techniques of a martial system. If the technique is bad for self-defense then it shouldn't count as a score.

Yeah I'm from a full contact background that's where most of my fighting is from. I've done boxing, kickboxing and mma and only after I stopped all that I did a few point tournaments. The highest position I ever took was bronze.

Also a lot of those guys can't take a shot or just cheat to get a dq. I was fighting this one guy once and I threw a reverse punch. And it was a bad punch as well because it was a feint to set up a punch to the head but he was doing his jumping stuff and ran imto it. It didn't hit him hard but he went down moaning and groaning and rolling round when I'd hit him with 5% if that it was pathetic and I've seen guys who put fake blood on their mouth to look they're bleeding which causes instant dq in kenpo point tournaments.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To me what is great about point fighting Is it's a way to bring different people and different styles somewhere so that the student can spar with them

Point fight can help with Footwork, spacing, seeing different styles.....but also they need to realize a true fight is much more violent and your opponent is not following tournament rules.


For us, #1 thing is competition and him enjoying competing, but it also gives him something to work for.

It also allows him to experience different problems (size, speed advantages, differing styles, etc...) and have to figure out ways to overcome these problems.

Point sparring by itself isn't bad. It's the abandoning all of the martial techniques that makes it bad. So the footwork, spacing, and speed that they are seeing is not martial footwork, spacing, and speed.
A student will spend 10 years worth of classes where the teacher says. Make sure your pull your leg back quickly when you kick.
Then when they do competition they do the total opposite.

 

[Headhunter]

Point sparring by itself isn't bad. It's the abandoning all of the martial techniques that makes it bad. So the footwork, spacing, and speed that they are seeing is not martial footwork, spacing, and speed.
A student will spend 10 years worth of classes where the teacher says. Make sure your pull your leg back quickly when you kick.
Then when they do competition they do the total opposite.

It's the same thing with taekwondo, most practitioners will say taekwondo guys don't fight that way like in competitions. Then my question is why do they fight like that at all. Why do the tournaments make the practitioners feel they have to fight in that way.

 

[CB Jones]

Point sparring by itself isn't bad. It's the abandoning all of the martial techniques that makes it bad. So the footwork, spacing, and speed that they are seeing is not martial footwork, spacing, and speed.
A student will spend 10 years worth of classes where the teacher says. Make sure your pull your leg back quickly when you kick.
Then when they do competition they do the total opposite.

No disrespect to anyone but what you posted is sport karate and imho is the worst of all the competitions.

There are some other organizations that put more emphasis on technique and effectiveness.

 

[WaterGal]

Yeah I'm from a full contact background that's where most of my fighting is from. I've done boxing, kickboxing and mma and only after I stopped all that I did a few point tournaments. The highest position I ever took was bronze.

Also a lot of those guys can't take a shot or just cheat to get a dq. I was fighting this one guy once and I threw a reverse punch. And it was a bad punch as well because it was a feint to set up a punch to the head but he was doing his jumping stuff and ran imto it. It didn't hit him hard but he went down moaning and groaning and rolling round when I'd hit him with 5% if that it was pathetic and I've seen guys who put fake blood on their mouth to look they're bleeding which causes instant dq in kenpo point tournaments.

While I know that WTF-style TKD tournaments end up being pretty stylized too, at least in that, the guy who falls on the ground and says he can't continue is the one who gets disqualified. For adults, that's true even if they're actually really injured or TKO'd. (For kids, that only applies for body blows - for a head shot that causes a KO or visible injury, the kicker will get the DQ.)

And there are ways to try to reduce some of the stylized fighting stuff. WTF comes up with new rules every couple years to try to deal with it. The new rules for this year include: 1) cut kick is a full point deduction, unless immediately followed by an actual kick, 2) blocking a kick with the leg is a full point deduction, and 3) pushing from a clinch to create distance is allowed (in the past, this was a half point deduction). Plus, they increased the penalty for falling from a half-point deduction to a full-point deduction (the person falling is the one penalized), and same with keeping your leg in the air for more than 3 seconds.

I haven't been to a tournament since the new rules went into effect, but I've heard it's helping with some of the "leg fencing" stuff.

 

[KangTsai]

There is no problem with point sparring if you hold true to the techniques of your system. But when you abandon your system's techniques and train to be good at bad techniques then your ability as a practitioner will take a hit. A practitioner must train good technique ALL THE TIME (as much as possible) You stayed true to your system which is why you didn't have a huge success, but I'm willing to be that there were multiple times where you could have taken the hit from your opponent and deliver a more powerful hit in return.

This is training bad technique for the sake of point sparring and this is where people get in trouble.

My thoughts is that the rules should be made where valid scoring can only come from the techniques of a martial system. If the technique is bad for self-defense then it shouldn't count as a score.

Actually, many federation's have such form-keeping rules. Frankly though, I don't think they care.

 

[KangTsai]

While I know that WTF-style TKD tournaments end up being pretty stylized too, at least in that, the guy who falls on the ground and says he can't continue is the one who gets disqualified. For adults, that's true even if they're actually really injured or TKO'd. (For kids, that only applies for body blows - for a head shot that causes a KO or visible injury, the kicker will get the DQ.)

And there are ways to try to reduce some of the stylized fighting stuff. WTF comes up with new rules every couple years to try to deal with it. The new rules for this year include: 1) cut kick is a full point deduction, unless immediately followed by an actual kick, 2) blocking a kick with the leg is a full point deduction, and 3) pushing from a clinch to create distance is allowed (in the past, this was a half point deduction). Plus, they increased the penalty for falling from a half-point deduction to a full-point deduction (the person falling is the one penalized), and same with keeping your leg in the air for more than 3 seconds.

I haven't been to a tournament since the new rules went into effect, but I've heard it's helping with some of the "leg fencing" stuff.

Maybe they should increase the force threshold on the sensors they wear in the form of padding.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can still validate training and have fun by using technique. If the judges have a trained eye for techniques then they will be able to tell just as easily as we do when the technique is not "martial"

True enough, though that only matters if the rules require effectiveness. If the rules only require a touch, it doesn't matter whether the judges can identify effectiveness or not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's the same thing with taekwondo, most practitioners will say taekwondo guys don't fight that way like in competitions. Then my question is why do they fight like that at all. Why do the tournaments make the practitioners feel they have to fight in that way.

Because to win you have to play the rules. The rules don't favor combat-effective technique, so other technique creeps in over time and eventually becomes the norm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've seen guys who put fake blood on their mouth to look they're bleeding which causes instant dq in kenpo point tournaments.

Wow they took it to that extreme? That's just nuts.

Then my question is why do they fight like that at all. Why do the tournaments make the practitioners feel they have to fight in that way.

Good question. I took a look at some point sparring competitions from the 70's and there is definitely a big difference. Between point sparring now and point sparring then. I actually enjoyed watching the old videos and I'll probably go back and bookmark a few of the videos to share with the school even though almost all of the videos aren't Kung Fu. I found this video and it had some good techniques and concepts. Some of which I use even now with regular sparring

I took my first karate class around 7 or 8. I was taught similar concepts back then. Superfoot Wallace was my hero and I actually went to see him fight as a kid. I think he lost when I went to see him.
Instead of pads, the younger kids had to hit X-ray sheets/ paper. The stuff in the video. I never liked hitting or kicking that stuff as a kid. I thought that if could punch or kick a hole in that stuff as kid that the teacher would let me hit the pads.. lol .

 

[CB Jones]

Wow they took it to that extreme? That's just nuts.

Good question. I took a look at some point sparring competitions from the 70's and there is definitely a big difference. Between point sparring now and point sparring then. I actually enjoyed watching the old videos and I'll probably go back and bookmark a few of the videos to share with the school even though almost all of the videos aren't Kung Fu. I found this video and it had some good techniques and concepts. Some of which I use even now with regular sparring

I took my first karate class around 7 or 8. I was taught similar concepts back then. Superfoot Wallace was my hero and I actually went to see him fight as a kid. I think he lost when I went to see him.
Instead of pads, the younger kids had to hit X-ray sheets/ paper. The stuff in the video. I never liked hitting or kicking that stuff as a kid. I thought that if could punch or kick a hole in that stuff as kid that the teacher would let me hit the pads.. lol .

Interesting.

My son competes in the same organization Wallace did. They dont allow as much head contact due to liability reasons but a lot of the old guard that competed against Wallace is still around the organization.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interesting.

My son competes in the same organization Wallace did. They dont allow as much head contact due to liability reasons but a lot of the old guard that competed against Wallace is still around the organization.

That's good. I'm glad to hear that they are still around.

 

[CB Jones]

The membership of the organization is mainly west of the Mississippi River and but it is still a pretty big organization.

 

[Buka]

There is no problem with point sparring if you hold true to the techniques of your system. But when you abandon your system's techniques and train to be good at bad techniques then your ability as a practitioner will take a hit. A practitioner must train good technique ALL THE TIME (as much as possible) You stayed true to your system which is why you didn't have a huge success, but I'm willing to be that there were multiple times where you could have taken the hit from your opponent and deliver a more powerful hit in return.

This is training bad technique for the sake of point sparring and this is where people get in trouble.

My thoughts is that the rules should be made where valid scoring can only come from the techniques of a martial system. If the technique is bad for self-defense then it shouldn't count as a score.

I have no disagreement with you post. Just with that second clip. That isn't a California Blitz.

 

[thanson02]

So I was at a tournament last weekend just spectating and it got me thinking about how point fighting gets a bad rep and I understand that but it's because of the fighters not the actual competition. They're so desperate to win they'll basically break all the rules of their style so they can get some points for a trophy. Now there's no problem with that as long as the fighters know that they can't fight like that in a self defense situation. Not all fighters fight like that bouncing hands down jumping and dancing. Myself I never did that and always fought the way I always would and I had some success not huge but I did and I have seen some but I do believe point fighting has it's benefits but fighters should use it to help there overall martial arts not basically make a new style for it.

I've seen a few fighters who are great at points and think they're amazing and can beat mma fighters or kick boxers with their point style. I know in the old days the point fights were brutal but now they're not as tough and people just fight with bad habits.

Just my 2 cents on it

I will be honest, I hate point sparring. As someone who works security, I have found no practical use for it in direct real world application that I cannot get in full round sparring matches. Also, it sets up false expectations in fighters for what is involved in real conflicts. There are times where point sparring is the preferred method though and it has merit as a training tool for the following:

• Help build speed and conditioning in a dynamic interaction
• condition fundamental movements for kids
• Weapons sparring, especially with blades (knives, swords, etc)

As used in tournaments, it is basically a dual between two competitors and can be good to show speed and skill, but my experience is that it is not usually the first strike that ends the fight, but the last one.