Knife Myths

[MJS]

While reading a recent issue of BB magazine, I came across an article written by Mark Jacobs. He was talking about some of the knife fighting 'masters' and how many of them have never used a knife in combat. He goes on to say that there is alot of inaccurate information out there, when it comes to knife defense and what a knife can/can't do.

So, he consulted with a NY based martial artist, who's trained many years in several systems that specialize in bladed weaponry. He's also an experienced medical professional who has studied knife attacks

***At this point I'll say that no mention of this 'experts' name is mentioned, other than Mark calling him "The Expert" so I can't confirm or deny any of this mystery mans background. So, that being said, take what he said, with a grain of salt.***

I'll go ahead and post a few small tidbits to the 4 'myths' that the "expert" talks about.

Myth #1: Its easy to kill a person quickly and easily with a blade. The "Expert" states: Wrong. There are few places that you can put a knife that'll drop them instantly. Someone under drugs could keep fighting despite the wounds. Someone stabbed in the heart could still go on or 30secs.

Myth #2: The areas a MAist is taught to target with a knife will work with any knife. The 'expert' states: Not always. The size of the blade will come into play when determining what types of injuries happen. The defanging of the snake, thats often found in the FMAs tend to be done with a large blade or sword, so alot of what you see probably wont have the effect thats usually claimed.

Myth #3: A MAist could block a slash with the outside of the forearm because a cut to the inside of the arm could be deadly. Expet says: Technically thats true, but with a small blade, you're less likely to suffer a fatal wound on the inside of the arm. Even if you did, you'll have enough time to make it to the hospital before losing consciousness.

Myth #4: A sharp knife will cut through clothing as though its not even there. Expert says: Nope. A heavy winter coat offers a degree of protection that few realize. But that still doesnt mean that you should neglect being cautious just because you may be wearing heavy clothing.


I figured I'd put this here, instead of the FMA or knife sections, because I wanted to hear from everyone, rather than just a blade specific art. So, what are your thoughts? Do you feel that this "Expert" knows what he's talking about?

 

[Dirty Dog]

While reading a recent issue of BB magazine, I came across an article written by Mark Jacobs. He was talking about some of the knife fighting 'masters' and how many of them have never used a knife in combat. He goes on to say that there is alot of inaccurate information out there, when it comes to knife defense and what a knife can/can't do.

So, he consulted with a NY based martial artist, who's trained many years in several systems that specialize in bladed weaponry. He's also an experienced medical professional who has studied knife attacks

***At this point I'll say that no mention of this 'experts' name is mentioned, other than Mark calling him "The Expert" so I can't confirm or deny any of this mystery mans background. So, that being said, take what he said, with a grain of salt.***

I've seen a few wounds inflicted with various sharp objects in 30-some years in EMS and the ER...

I'll go ahead and post a few small tidbits to the 4 'myths' that the "expert" talks about.

Myth #1: Its easy to kill a person quickly and easily with a blade. The "Expert" states: Wrong. There are few places that you can put a knife that'll drop them instantly. Someone under drugs could keep fighting despite the wounds. Someone stabbed in the heart could still go on or 30secs.

This is true. Even severing the carotid or femoral artery is not instant death. Quick, but not instant. And really not all that easy to do. I've seen more than one person with knife or bullet holes in the heart who kept on fighting. In fact, the only truely "instant" death from a blade I can think of would be one which severed the spinal cord.

Myth #2: The areas a MAist is taught to target with a knife will work with any knife. The 'expert' states: Not always. The size of the blade will come into play when determining what types of injuries happen. The defanging of the snake, thats often found in the FMAs tend to be done with a large blade or sword, so alot of what you see probably wont have the effect thats usually claimed.

Yes and no. The size of the blade certainly matters, but given the compressability of human tissues, a small blade can and will penetrate deeper than you might expect. And the small puncture wound is also more likely to be missed during a hurried initial exam, especially when there's a big bloody (but shallow) slash somewhere else.

Myth #3: A MAist could block a slash with the outside of the forearm because a cut to the inside of the arm could be deadly. Expet says: Technically thats true, but with a small blade, you're less likely to suffer a fatal wound on the inside of the arm. Even if you did, you'll have enough time to make it to the hospital before losing consciousness.

Agreed. Frankly, I can only think of one arm lac in the last decade (other than amputations,which I don't think are at issue here) that was truely life threatening. It severed the brachial artery, and would not have been nearly as bad, if the foolish drunken people involved had called 911 instead of driving him in with a towel wrapped around his arm. However, the ulnar surface of the arm is certainly going to provide the least chance of a blade hitting something major.

Myth #4: A sharp knife will cut through clothing as though its not even there. Expert says: Nope. A heavy winter coat offers a degree of protection that few realize. But that still doesnt mean that you should neglect being cautious just because you may be wearing heavy clothing.

Piffle. The idea that all clothing is the same is patently ludicrous. Your pretty silk shirt is obviously not going to provide as much protection as a leather coat, or multiple layers of heavy fabric. Nor does it account for the very different injuries from a thrust, a slash or a cut. Nobody with an intelligence above room temp should need an expert to tell them that.

 

[Cyriacus]

Knives arent any more Lethal than a Brick, which isnt any more Lethal than the Hand that Throws it.
Its Where, and How, and with What.
I mean, Accost Me with a ****ing Claymore Sword and I will not try and take You on. Make Me a Black Belt in everything known to Man and Ill still Hesitate to try and Fight a Guy with a Claymore using Unarmed Combat.
A Guy with a Short to Medium Length Fixed or Non-Fixed Blade Knife or Tanto, and then Ill judge it based on the Situation. Make it a Long Knife, and Im more likely to, due to the exact Length of a Long Knife making it easier to Infight.
This isnt fully fleshed out in Details and Ifs and Buts, but im not writing a bloody Knife Fighting Booklet here.

What Im saying, is that Hes mostly Correct.
Assuming someone didnt get all fearful, and the Knife Fighter wasnt Speed-Stabbing.

 

[Chris Parker]

While reading a recent issue of BB magazine, I came across an article written by Mark Jacobs. He was talking about some of the knife fighting 'masters' and how many of them have never used a knife in combat. He goes on to say that there is alot of inaccurate information out there, when it comes to knife defense and what a knife can/can't do.

So, he consulted with a NY based martial artist, who's trained many years in several systems that specialize in bladed weaponry. He's also an experienced medical professional who has studied knife attacks

***At this point I'll say that no mention of this 'experts' name is mentioned, other than Mark calling him "The Expert" so I can't confirm or deny any of this mystery mans background. So, that being said, take what he said, with a grain of salt.***

I'll go ahead and post a few small tidbits to the 4 'myths' that the "expert" talks about.

Myth #1: Its easy to kill a person quickly and easily with a blade. The "Expert" states: Wrong. There are few places that you can put a knife that'll drop them instantly. Someone under drugs could keep fighting despite the wounds. Someone stabbed in the heart could still go on or 30secs.

Myth #2: The areas a MAist is taught to target with a knife will work with any knife. The 'expert' states: Not always. The size of the blade will come into play when determining what types of injuries happen. The defanging of the snake, thats often found in the FMAs tend to be done with a large blade or sword, so alot of what you see probably wont have the effect thats usually claimed.

Myth #3: A MAist could block a slash with the outside of the forearm because a cut to the inside of the arm could be deadly. Expet says: Technically thats true, but with a small blade, you're less likely to suffer a fatal wound on the inside of the arm. Even if you did, you'll have enough time to make it to the hospital before losing consciousness.

Myth #4: A sharp knife will cut through clothing as though its not even there. Expert says: Nope. A heavy winter coat offers a degree of protection that few realize. But that still doesnt mean that you should neglect being cautious just because you may be wearing heavy clothing.


I figured I'd put this here, instead of the FMA or knife sections, because I wanted to hear from everyone, rather than just a blade specific art. So, what are your thoughts? Do you feel that this "Expert" knows what he's talking about?

Hey Mike,

Overall, it's not too bad, really. The guy does know what he's talking about, but he is making a fair few generalisations (hardly surprising) for my tastes. But to take them in order:

1: Yep, very true. One of my first go-to guys for knife is Michael Janich, and one of the things that Michael did early on was to test the Fairbairn "Timetable of Death" (the approximate time it takes for specific injuries to cause death, or other immobilisations, such as bleeding out to unconsciousness). And the first thing he found was that Fairbairn had basically guessed at all of it, and it was rather inaccurate in a large number of cases. People had more time than Fairbairn had thought. As a result, Michael Janich turned his knife work to "fight stopping" actions, taking the ability for limbs to mechanically work, which is an approach that is unaffected by the drugs the opponent is on, the adrenaline, etc, and is also not necessarily a lethal response.

A few days ago I was discussing this with another instructor (in some traditional Japanese arts, such as Iaido), and we were both making the point that it is not easy to "just drop someone" with a cut or stab.... although in some cases, that is exactly what happens. The basic lesson was to not expect to immediately drop someone if you have a knife, but to also realise that if they have one, there is the chance that they could (potentially) do that to you, so to not underestimate the knife's power.

2: This is the first generalisation... which martial art, and which targets? As I said, my knife work is highly based on Michael Janich's work, so my targets tend to be the tendons, flexors, muscles etc on the limbs in order to disable them, and in those cases, a short blade or a long blade is pretty fine. Then again, in the more "traditional" side of things, a longer blade is required for some of the entry methods and so forth. So that really depends on the methods in question.

3: Ha, that one I'd just call the "lesser of two evils". The main thing is to avoid the blade, and part of that for us includes moving inside the functional range of the blade, and putting a "barrier" of your arms between your body and the knife. Ideally, I teach to have the backs of your forearms facing the attackers arm, but that is not always possible/optimal, so if you have the inner arms presented, okay. Just be careful.... I know of other instructors in other systems who teach to always go in with the inner forearm first, as it's the exact same physical action as a number of other things whether a knife is involved or not, so there is no need to adjust. Additionally, it can lead to a quicker seize for control over the weapon, so it does have a place... just try to not touch the metal sharp bit!

4: Now this one is a big generalisation. A heavy winter coat can provide a fair amount of protection, as can leather jackets and the like (the thicker the better that way), but it's not guaranteed. Denim, for instance, some think provides a fair amount of protection, but again, if you find some of Michael Janichs material, he demonstrates pretty quickly the way a knife can go through demin (as in jeans) pretty easily as well. So some clothing can offer some protection, others just won't do much. My preferred use of clothing to protect against a knife would be to wrap a jacket or something similar around my hand/forearm, making it as thick as I could, and go in with that, using the wrapped arm to knock the knife/knife hand, intercept incoming slashes, etc.

With the beginning, talking about many "knife masters" who have never used a blade in combat, a number look specifically to the Filipino systems as there is a heavy blade culture there, and many of the systems are based in the combat that is frequent in that part of the world. That, to most, lends the system credibility in it's approach to knife combat, as the methods taught have theoretically been used "for real". However, most don't take into account the cultural aspects, the preference for particular blades, particular attacks, particular rituals, particular legal realities, and so on. So while the methods may have indeed seen use, they may have seen use in a fairly different environment than the one you're practicing for. Which is an interesting thing to consider when such claims are being used as to why a particular system is "better" than another... the question is always, "better for what"?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Knives arent any more Lethal than a Brick, which isnt any more Lethal than the Hand that Throws it.
Its Where, and How, and with What.
I mean, Accost Me with a ****ing Claymore Sword and I will not try and take You on. Make Me a Black Belt in everything known to Man and Ill still Hesitate to try and Fight a Guy with a Claymore using Unarmed Combat.
A Guy with a Short to Medium Length Fixed or Non-Fixed Blade Knife or Tanto, and then Ill judge it based on the Situation. Make it a Long Knife, and Im more likely to, due to the exact Length of a Long Knife making it easier to Infight.
This isnt fully fleshed out in Details and Ifs and Buts, but im not writing a bloody Knife Fighting Booklet here.

What Im saying, is that Hes mostly Correct.
Assuming someone didnt get all fearful, and the Knife Fighter wasnt Speed-Stabbing.

Actually, you might well be better off fighting the sword wielder. The true claymore is a long, heavy two handed sword. It's use to describe a Scottish broadsword is common, but not entirely accurate. What the weapons have in common is that they are large, relatively heavy, and intended to be used against an opponent wearing armor. Their attacks are not particularly fast. Move in close, and a 7 foot weapon is not terribly useful.

Unless you meant a claymore mine, in which case I'll need to re-write this reply.

 

[Cyriacus]

Actually, you might well be better off fighting the sword wielder. The true claymore is a long, heavy two handed sword. It's use to describe a Scottish broadsword is common, but not entirely accurate. What the weapons have in common is that they are large, relatively heavy, and intended to be used against an opponent wearing armor. Their attacks are not particularly fast. Move in close, and a 7 foot weapon is not terribly useful.

Unless you meant a claymore mine, in which case I'll need to re-write this reply.

Yeah, but its a ****ing CLAYMORE. Its a 7 Foot Long Blade that could literally cut You in Half. Id rather not try to Attack it Head On.
I mean, lets think of someone Swinging Right to Left, then back Left to Right, adjusting the Arc as needed. Swinging Straight Up if You end up in Range, and Raising Up to Swing Down if You go past it as it passes You.
Yeah, Logically You can overcome it.

Now get someone a Genuine Claymore and try to tell Yourself that the first time.
Then try the same thing in a SD Scenario

In fact, I can find a True Story about a Commando in WW2 who went into Combat with a Claymore and a Bagpipe (Im being quite Serious, mind).
And Successfully... Won... On a couple of Occassions.

 

[Chris Parker]

Actually, I'm with Dirty Dog on this. The Claymore you're at least going to see first.... the knife? Not so likely. Additionally, evasion against a longer, more cumbersome weapon is easier than against a small, highly agile one. I was taking a few of the more senior guys through some approaches against spears on Tuesday night... and it involved you using a short sword, not a long one. Getting past the spear was not too difficult, but once past, the spearman had no use of his weapon.

That said, the intimidation of something like a Claymore definitely has an impact on how you proceed!

 

[frank raud]

Knife training probably has the highest amount of instructors with no real world experience, only theory, and simulated practice. As very few people want to take a live blade and test a theory, so it shall remain.

 

[Flying Crane]

While reading a recent issue of BB magazine, I came across an article written by Mark Jacobs. He was talking about some of the knife fighting 'masters' and how many of them have never used a knife in combat.

Knife training probably has the highest amount of instructors with no real world experience, only theory, and simulated practice. As very few people want to take a live blade and test a theory, so it shall remain.

You beat me to it. Really, how many people out there have extensive hands-on experience with this, at least in American society? It's just not that common, and to expect an extensive amount of experience would mean the guy is a downright felon who ought to be in prison for life.

The nature of society in modern America is such that the vast majority of those teaching any weapon are going to have little or no real-life experience with it. They are teaching from theory.

Now someone coming from some war torn region of Africa, for example, might have more of that experience. And I'd bet they have a very small number of techniques, which are all very simple and straight forward. Nothing fancy or complicated.

 

[Chris Parker]

Except, as I mentioned earlier (ha, I beat both of you to it!) that experience will be coloured by the cultural environment, so the experience won't necessarily be terribly close to what you would go up against in a knife defence/usage context in another culture. For instance, the war-torn African approach would more likely tend towards larger blades, getting closer to a machete, the attacking tactics would be intentionally lethal, large, swinging attacks, most likely coming down on a diagonal, and just chopping down on anything presented (arms, legs, sticks in the way etc). Not really anything like a mugging with a knife, a grab-and-shank attack, being held and the knife pressed against you, or anything else more likely in a modern Western urban or city environment. The knife used in the Western version will typically be far smaller as well, ambush attacks more of a common approach (many people who have been stabbed just think they've been punched, as they don't see the knife, which is a far cry from having your fingers cut off by a machete swinging at you... you tend to notice things like that!).

So the person may have some experience in bladed weapon combat, but is it really relevant experience?

 

[Carol]

Myth #1 I agree....for reasons already stated.

Myth #2: The areas a MAist is taught to target with a knife will work with any knife. The 'expert' states: Not always. The size of the blade will come into play when determining what types of injuries happen. The defanging of the snake, thats often found in the FMAs tend to be done with a large blade or sword, so alot of what you see probably wont have the effect thats usually claimed.

Strongly agree. Target reas will work with any ANY knife? A kerambit is a knife, so is a push dagger, a small folder, and a large Ka-Bar. These can all employ different targeting and different methods of action

Myth #3: A MAist could block a slash with the outside of the forearm because a cut to the inside of the arm could be deadly. Expet says: Technically thats true, but with a small blade, you're less likely to suffer a fatal wound on the inside of the arm. Even if you did, you'll have enough time to make it to the hospital before losing consciousness.

I honestly don't know. Both sides have nerves and connected tissue that, if severed, may not kill you by itself...but would render the defender's arm unusable and possibly open them up for a lethal attack.

Myth #4: A sharp knife will cut through clothing as though its not even there. Expert says: Nope. A heavy winter coat offers a degree of protection that few realize. But that still doesnt mean that you should neglect being cautious just because you may be wearing heavy clothing.

Definitely a myth, and one that should be taken in to account if carrying a blade for defensive purposes. If the environment is such where one is wearing a winter coat, chances are the bad guy is too. If once carries for defensive purposes, what do the local laws say? Is it possible for a law-abiding person carry an edge that can be effective in such a situation? Someone in Boston with its statutory 2.5" blade length is going to have much more restrictions and far fewer possibilities than someone from NH who can carry just about anything.,

 

[Carol]

Except, as I mentioned earlier (ha, I beat both of you to it!) that experience will be coloured by the cultural environment, so the experience won't necessarily be terribly close to what you would go up against in a knife defence/usage context in another culture. For instance, the war-torn African approach would more likely tend towards larger blades, getting closer to a machete, the attacking tactics would be intentionally lethal, large, swinging attacks, most likely coming down on a diagonal, and just chopping down on anything presented (arms, legs, sticks in the way etc). Not really anything like a mugging with a knife, a grab-and-shank attack, being held and the knife pressed against you, or anything else more likely in a modern Western urban or city environment. The knife used in the Western version will typically be far smaller as well, ambush attacks more of a common approach (many people who have been stabbed just think they've been punched, as they don't see the knife, which is a far cry from having your fingers cut off by a machete swinging at you... you tend to notice things like that!).

So the person may have some experience in bladed weapon combat, but is it really relevant experience?

Depends on where in the West. Things like machete attacks are becoming increasingly common here. Machetes are relatively cheap, and widely available...many home and garden shops have them. They are the weapon of choice for a notorious organized gang who needs no further publicity.

NH/VT/ME are the U.S. states are consistently the states with the three lowest crime rates in the country. Yet in my state alone, it is easy to find accounts of machete attacks.

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/392100-196/police-see-disturbing-trend-in-use-of.html

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/916307-196/nashua-teen-charged-in-machete-robbery.html
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/09/nh-teen-gets-life-for-machete-murder-in-home-invasion/
http://www.wmur.com/news/23303120/detail.html
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ne...hester_nh_man_facing_machete_assault_charges/
http://www.officer.com/news/10264065/nh-suspect-arrested-found-by-his-severed-finger

 

[MJS]

While reading a recent issue of BB magazine, I came across an article written by Mark Jacobs. He was talking about some of the knife fighting 'masters' and how many of them have never used a knife in combat. He goes on to say that there is alot of inaccurate information out there, when it comes to knife defense and what a knife can/can't do.

So, he consulted with a NY based martial artist, who's trained many years in several systems that specialize in bladed weaponry. He's also an experienced medical professional who has studied knife attacks

***At this point I'll say that no mention of this 'experts' name is mentioned, other than Mark calling him "The Expert" so I can't confirm or deny any of this mystery mans background. So, that being said, take what he said, with a grain of salt.***

I'll go ahead and post a few small tidbits to the 4 'myths' that the "expert" talks about.

Myth #1: Its easy to kill a person quickly and easily with a blade. The "Expert" states: Wrong. There are few places that you can put a knife that'll drop them instantly. Someone under drugs could keep fighting despite the wounds. Someone stabbed in the heart could still go on or 30secs.

Myth #2: The areas a MAist is taught to target with a knife will work with any knife. The 'expert' states: Not always. The size of the blade will come into play when determining what types of injuries happen. The defanging of the snake, thats often found in the FMAs tend to be done with a large blade or sword, so alot of what you see probably wont have the effect thats usually claimed.

Myth #3: A MAist could block a slash with the outside of the forearm because a cut to the inside of the arm could be deadly. Expet says: Technically thats true, but with a small blade, you're less likely to suffer a fatal wound on the inside of the arm. Even if you did, you'll have enough time to make it to the hospital before losing consciousness.

Myth #4: A sharp knife will cut through clothing as though its not even there. Expert says: Nope. A heavy winter coat offers a degree of protection that few realize. But that still doesnt mean that you should neglect being cautious just because you may be wearing heavy clothing.


I figured I'd put this here, instead of the FMA or knife sections, because I wanted to hear from everyone, rather than just a blade specific art. So, what are your thoughts? Do you feel that this "Expert" knows what he's talking about?

To answer my own questions:

1) Much like any weapon, even empty hands, I'm not going to rely on this as some magic tool, that'll stop the person instantly, however, I wouldn't completely disregard it either. Of course, like Carol said, machete attacks are not uncommon. You're lible to get your arm lopped off or damn near close to it, if you get hit with something like that. Furthermore, inmates dont have access to real fancy tools to fashion weapons out of. A toothbrush, hard pieces of plastic, you name it, can all be fashioned into a tool to stab. Amazing how quick someone can die from repeatedly being stabbed.

2) The idea with the defanging, IMO, is an accumulation of injuries, ie: attack the incoming weapon arm, and continue to attack other areas after that. I dont feel that it was ever designed to be a fight ender.

3) Well as Chris said, of course the objective is to not get cut, yet we all know, or should know, that it may happen. So, that said, use your head, and do what you can to prevent serious damage.

4) Well, unless you're living in a state where its cold every day of the year, you're not going to be wearing heavy clothing. However, I'm sure we all have or most of us have all seen footage of people cutting a meat wrapped in heavy clothing. Sorry, I'm not going to bank on my winter coat preventing serious injury.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not an expert on knives or knife defense. I know this much; a knife used in a stabbing motion can penetrate police-style body armor. An ice-pick is even better for that. And a lot of what stops someone who has been stabbed has to do with their own mindset. Most people, sane and sober, when shot or stabbed, will stop what they are doing immediately because of what has just happened to them. There are also people who have died of non-fatal wounds because that's what they believe happens when they are shot or stabbed. People who have been shot or stabbed before, or who have little interest in self-preservation, will often shrug off even wounds which should be or ultimately are fatal and continue to fight. And lastly, if you are involved in a fight with a person armed with a knife, you are going to get cut. That's about the extent of my knowledge on the subject.

 

[jks9199]

Actually, I'm with Dirty Dog on this. The Claymore you're at least going to see first.... the knife? Not so likely. Additionally, evasion against a longer, more cumbersome weapon is easier than against a small, highly agile one. I was taking a few of the more senior guys through some approaches against spears on Tuesday night... and it involved you using a short sword, not a long one. Getting past the spear was not too difficult, but once past, the spearman had no use of his weapon.

That said, the intimidation of something like a Claymore definitely has an impact on how you proceed!

From what I've seen, what I've read, and what people who know knife attacks better than I do say -- there are two primary sorts of knife attacks. The ones where the blade is brandished, and everyone can see it... and the ones where the first clue someone's been stabbed is when someone else notices that they're bleeding or dead.

In the first -- you've got a chance to deal with it. The general comments above are pretty reasonable. Keep things simple and direct. (Personally -- a gun is a great response to a brandished knife when possible.) Notice that I don't care if they really intend to stab or not. It's immaterial to me; I'm going to assume they intend to kill me. One of the biggest hurdles from interviews of victims I've done is simply accepting that they really are being threatened with a knife...

In the second? Not much you can do, other than react to the fact that you've been attacked. Don't roll over & die, fight and keep fighting. You don't know that the knife is there until you've been attacked with it; you're on the backside of time there, whether the weapon is a knife or club or fist.

 

[JohnEdward]

I've seen a few wounds inflicted with various sharp objects in 30-some years in EMS and the ER...

Yes and no. The size of the blade certainly matters, but given the compressability of human tissues, a small blade can and will penetrate deeper than you might expect. And the small puncture wound is also more likely to be missed during a hurried initial exam, especially when there's a big bloody (but shallow) slash somewhere else.

Fact in prison stabbed enough times with a shank made from a tooth brush as an example, will cause death from bleeding out. That is why you hear stories in prison some inmate was stabbed (puncture wounds) 20-200 times, depending on the stabber.

 

[Indagator]

Knife training probably has the highest amount of instructors with no real world experience, only theory, and simulated practice. As very few people want to take a live blade and test a theory, so it shall remain.

What you can do, although first I must say DO THIS ONLY UNDER VERY, VERY CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES and DO THIS WITH A KNOWLEDGABLE INSTRUCTOR &c.

Is that if you are like me, and are a total freak about maintaining shaving-sharp edges on your broadheads, knives, bladed whatevers and so forth then you will probably be aware that it is possible to produce an edge on a blade that is dulled enough so it would need a lot of force or pressure to create a serious cut, but still has enough of an edge to give a bit of a bite if contacted, and maybe split a little bit of skin.
Personally I put an edge on that is kind of like a wedge, whereas I'll use less of a shouldered edge for a razor-sharpness. I'll put the edge on with a stone, but won't steel it or strop it.

Now to get an idea of what I mean, we're talking about an edge that if you grip the whole blade in your hand and squeeze like giving a firm handshake you will get a little bit of a slice much like a papercut - anything sharper than that is simply too dangerous imho.

From there, this blade can be used in slow, controlled scenario training where you will not receive any seroius injuries but after each scenario you can look at the wee scratch, if you got one, and understand how a fully live blade would have wounded you.

Be careful if you decide to try this, and I cannot say this enough - make sure it is not sharp enough to do you a real mischief.

 

[frank raud]

What you can do, although first I must say DO THIS ONLY UNDER VERY, VERY CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES and DO THIS WITH A KNOWLEDGABLE INSTRUCTOR &c.

Is that if you are like me, and are a total freak about maintaining shaving-sharp edges on your broadheads, knives, bladed whatevers and so forth then you will probably be aware that it is possible to produce an edge on a blade that is dulled enough so it would need a lot of force or pressure to create a serious cut, but still has enough of an edge to give a bit of a bite if contacted, and maybe split a little bit of skin.
Personally I put an edge on that is kind of like a wedge, whereas I'll use less of a shouldered edge for a razor-sharpness. I'll put the edge on with a stone, but won't steel it or strop it.

Now to get an idea of what I mean, we're talking about an edge that if you grip the whole blade in your hand and squeeze like giving a firm handshake you will get a little bit of a slice much like a papercut - anything sharper than that is simply too dangerous imho.

From there, this blade can be used in slow, controlled scenario training where you will not receive any seroius injuries but after each scenario you can look at the wee scratch, if you got one, and understand how a fully live blade would have wounded you.

Be careful if you decide to try this, and I cannot say this enough - make sure it is not sharp enough to do you a real mischief.

Or you can use a Shock knife, get the feedback you need without running the risk of being cut. But it is still a simulation, whether using an artifical weapon(the Shock knife) or working through a technique at slow speed. It is not real world experience, not the visceral feel of live tissue experiment. Knife training is the coitus interuptus of martial arts training, you can never get the real feel of the ending.

 

[David43515]

Yeah, I`d have to say that using real knives with anykind of edge in your force on force training is a no-go. Even in empty hand drills and sparring, people slip and someone gets clobbered from time to time.

Use a shock knife, use a rubber knife with chalked edges, use magic markers, all these things will show you where you goofed up. And if you absolutely must use real knives (not live blades, just an altered knife) then take the edge and the point off with a file or grinder, and then put a few layers of tape over the old edge. Training partners for realistic knife work are in short supply anyway. If you start having accidents where people are getting even minor cuts on a regular basis pretty soon you`ll be doing all your training alone.

 

[Indagator]

Yeah, I`d have to say that using real knives with anykind of edge in your force on force training is a no-go. Even in empty hand drills and sparring, people slip and someone gets clobbered from time to time.
...If you start having accidents where people are getting even minor cuts on a regular basis pretty soon you`ll be doing all your training alone.

Yeah, I may not have been clear about what I meant there lol. I wouldn't use it for sparring or anything done with serious force - heck even something with no edge, but with a pointy end, can cause some nasty skewerings if landed on awkwardly.
I wouldn't say the blade I'm talking about has what I would call an edge to it really, and when training (slow, scenario training) what it does is gives a "bite" sort of feeling but rarely breaks the skin. And when it does, it's not the sort of thing I mind. I'd never make anybody else train that way unless they felt the same about it as I do of course.
However I am actually considering removing my post there, because I'm not sure I'm describing things right, plus I know what I am doing whereas people might copy it that don't.

Maybe I'll just stick to saying that how you want the profile to be on your blade is like a big fat wedge, it shouldn't be able to cut when you apply decent pressure but there should be a "bite" feeling to it - and if pressed solidly and evenly into, say, the back of the arm it will leave a line-type indent that will go away in a little while kind of like if a string had bee tied tightly there.

In general, I'd say just don't try this unless you know what you're doing, don't be an idiot with it, and remember that if anybody copies me and trains with a knife like this that even though you've taken the edge off of it if you don't respect the weapon you could be hurt.