Death sentence on television?

[billc]

I am asking you tez, what do you think, should a rapist be executed, and should a rape victim be allowed to execute the rapist?

I have to say, a fully formed human being in the womb is not considered alive until the umbilical cord is cut, and can be murdererd with the only consequences being, whatever those letters mean, I guess, aggravated assault and battery. Do you think that is right Tez?

 

[Big Don]

Ah I just love ignorance.

That is good, considering you are about to show your own.

firstly no one is pro abortion, what people are for is pro choice.

Oh really. What then would you call people like Margret Sanger, if not pro-abortion?
Eugenics, while the term may be dead, the organizations started by the movement's people, such as Planned Parenthood, are alive and well and doing big business.

 

[ballen0351]

That's your story but for many many others it's not the same and you shouldn't assume it was, what you said was offensive.

There are too many stories of desparate women and desparate lives to generalise about women and abortion.

Much better rather than lecture us would be to campaign against abortion in places like China where it's forced on women by the State.

I don’t care if its offensive. To me to kill a baby is offensive.

How do you get pregnant? You have sex.
How do yo not get pregnant? You don’t have sex.
If these woman are so "desperate" maybe they should stop having sex until they fix themselves ohh but where is the fun in that. So instead they do what they want be damned the outcome because they can just suck the baby out and be good as new right.

You can't beat that argument there is no way around it if you dont want a baby do not have sex.

So you’re against abortions in China? They are desperate right? Poor?
Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Tez3]

I don’t care if its offensive. To me to kill a baby is offensive.

How do you get pregnant? You have sex.
How do yo not get pregnant? You don’t have sex.
If these woman are so "desperate" maybe they should stop having sex until they fix themselves ohh but where is the fun in that. So instead they do what they want be damned the outcome because they can just suck the baby out and be good as new right.

You can't beat that argument there is no way around it if you dont want a baby do not have sex.

So you’re against abortions in China? They are desperate right? Poor?
Can’t have it both ways.

The ability to twist someone's words is a talent very underrated.

Am I against abortions in China? what I'm against is a woman who is arrested and forced to a hospital where she is forcibly tied down and forcibly given an abortion. If you break the 'one child' rule in China this is likely to be what happens. didn't you know that?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...men-were-forced-to-have-abortions-507688.html

Don, I have no idea who this Sanger woman is. As you probably knew when you wrote it.

ABH is actual bodily harm, GBH is grievous bodily harm. The charges could only be laid if the mother was injured which I assume she would be to lose the baby. The assault is on the mother not the unborn child.




What is offensive is when you said a woman my friend had an abortion for convenience when it was a planned and wanted child. There was horrendous damage to the foetus and you have no idea of the grief that family suffered.

 

[ballen0351]

What is offensive is when you said a woman my friend had an abortion for convenience when it was a planned and wanted child. There was horrendous damage to the foetus and you have no idea of the grief that family suffered.

So it fell under a medical reason which I already said I can agree with right?

 

[jks9199]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

This is a heated subject, but it absolutely can be discussed in a civil manner. Resorting to name calling and personal attacks, or using descriptions and phrases designed and intended to be inflammatory is not the way to do it.

Let's keep things civil before we have to take more direct moderator action.

 

[granfire]

Oh really. What then would you call people like Margret Sanger, if not pro-abortion?
Eugenics, while the term may be dead, the organizations started by the movement's people, such as Planned Parenthood, are alive and well and doing big business.

Then you also know that the hard core pro lifers don't want exceptions for rape victims and hardly any for medical reasons...

 

[billc]

With no hostility intended, only looking to clarify, I am waiting for Tez to answer three questions, how about your answers?

1-should rape be a death penalty offense?
2-should the rape victim be allowed to execute the rapist?

If a woman on the way to deliver a baby, who is nine months in the womb, a fully formed human being, is attacked, and the baby is killed, but the umbilical cord is not cut and so the baby is not legally alive, and the murderer only gets charged with assault and battery because the woman survived, or your equivalent in Britain, is that right?

Well Granfire, I put it to you.

 

[Tez3]

With no hostility intended, only looking to clarify, I am waiting for Tez to answer three questions, how about your answers?

1-should rape be a death penalty offense?
2-should the rape victim be allowed to execute the rapist?

If a woman on the way to deliver a baby, who is nine months in the womb, a fully formed human being, is attacked, and the baby is killed, but the umbilical cord is not cut and so the baby is not legally alive, and the murderer only gets charged with assault and battery because the woman survived, or your equivalent in Britain, is that right?

Well Granfire, I put it to you.

How many times do you want me to answer those questions. I have done it on two posts so far.

That's the law here. The charge can be attempted murder by the way, I need to know what injuries the hypothetical mother received before I can tell you what charges would be made, btw GBH and ABH are serious charges.

 

[Tez3]

So it fell under a medical reason which I already said I can agree with right?

then why did you say afterwards "I’m no doctor I was just saying I don’t buy the excuse you friend used but if it makes her sleep better at night."

I stated it was for medical reasons the first time I posted. You weren't there, you aren't here now while she still grieves but you pass judgement.

 

[billc]

I'm not asking about what the law in Britain is but what you think about the three questions. Remember, there is a dead human in the assault but british law doesn't list them as alive because the umbilical cord is not cut.

Just looking for clarity when there cannot be agreement.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not asking about what the law in Britain is but what you think about the three questions. Remember, there is a dead human in the assault but british law doesn't list them as alive because the umbilical cord is not cut.

Just looking for clarity when there cannot be agreement.

I'm afraid you can't separate British law and me.
I don't believe in the death penalty as I think you must realise from what I said.

 

[billc]

With no hostility, just curiosity, You actually do believe in the death penalty for the second innocent party to rape and incest, the human just concieved. The rapist walks away, the woman walks away but the baby is allowed to be killed. Is that where you stand?

The fully formed baby in the assault, perhaps hours or minutes from having the umbilical cord cut can be killed in the assault and the murderer doesn't get punished for it, even if the child is wanted by the woman? Do you stand by that, since you and the British law cannot be seperated?

Another Question from Dennis Pragers stand point, should Hitler or Stalin have been executed, or Jeffery Dhamer or John Wayne Gacey?

 

[billc]

Here is another question that will clarify some points, Do you believe that medical school students should be required to perform abortions as part of their medical training? Should they be allowed to opt out because of ethical or religous beliefs? This can apply in Canada, Britain and the U.S.

 

[Tez3]

With no hostility, just curiosity, You actually do believe in the death penalty for the second innocent party to rape and incest, the human just concieved. The rapist walks away, the woman walks away but the baby is allowed to be killed. Is that where you stand?

The fully formed baby in the assault, perhaps hours or minutes from having the umbilical cord cut can be killed in the assault and the murderer doesn't get punished for it, even if the child is wanted by the woman? Do you stand by that, since you and the British law cannot be seperated?

Another Question from Dennis Pragers stand point, should Hitler or Stalin have been executed, or Jeffery Dhamer or John Wayne Gacey?

I stand by a woman's right to chose, it's her body, her concience and her decision. The law allows that here. I stand by the law.
The law that says a foetus isn't a human being until the cord is cut is a very old one here, there are many reasons why it should be this way.Wiser heads than mine made this law. This means a medical abortion with the mother's consent cannot be murder, therefore I don't believe it is executing a person.

For a conservative and a person on the right wing you seem to have a propensity to want to interfere or have the government interfere a great deal in others lives, a woman has the right to make the decision. It's the communists that believe they have the right to decide for others and to have control over people.

You can never say a victim of rape or incest just walks away, that's crass and cruel.


I don't believe anyone should be executed by the state. Who is this Dennis Prager anyway?

 

[billc]

He is an author, a lecturer, and has a radio show here in the states. By walk away I mean they are still alive. The rapist, the stranger as well as the family member who commits incest, are still alive. The baby is not.

A nine month old baby is not alive until the umbilical cord is cut? You don't think that that law should be changed?

Here is my belief on the abortion issue. Life begins at conception. Abortion is killing a human baby. Abortion should be against the law except in the case of the death of the mother if the child is brought to term. Even in cases of rape and incest, a baby is a baby and should be allowed to live. The state should step in and once a finding of rape or incest is found, the state should provide care for the woman through pregnancy and take over the care of the child when it is born. Or, the woman could go through private charities, religous or secular, to achieve the same end. Protecting human life is the one role of the government that makes sense.

In the case of the life of the mother, it should still be up to the woman to decide if she wants to take the chance of loosing her life to deliver her child. Some women do value life that highly. Also, where both the mother and the baby would die if carried to term, you are choosing to save one life rather than let two die. I think the term is triage.

If someone murders a baby in the womb during the commision of a crime, they should recieve the death penalty as if the had killed the mother.

 

[Blade96]

I’m no doctor I was just saying I don’t buy the excuse you friend used but if it makes her sleep better at night

People like you and billcihak are the reason one of my friends never spoke about her abortion she had done and the only ones who know about it are her family and only a couple of friends like me

That and i agree fully with what Tez says, btw you think its so easy to just 'say keep their legs closed?' Is an addict gonna be able to do that with the pain and everything they go through already? Is it so easy to fight against the pressures of society just like that? I spent 30 years a virgin and was bullied for it you have no idea, i went and rushed into sex just so i wouldnt have to deal with it anymore and that was unprotected, you people just sit there and judge right.......its not as black and white or easy as you people claim. I have experienced it myself!

and also I think it is hilarious that people will bark up a storm about people being forced to have an abortion in China but those same people don't mind forcing women to become parents and give birth. Both these actions are wrong if we are ever to become full democratic societies.

 

[ballen0351]

I think it is hilarious that people will bark up a storm about people being forced to have an abortion in China but those same people don't mind forcing women to become parents and give birth. Both these actions are wrong if we are ever to become full democratic societies.

nobodys forcing anyone to be a parent we have adoptions in this country remember.

no matter how you want to rationalize it having an abortion is killing a life. Your friend had one and didn't tell anyone? Why? She ashamed of what she did because she knows it's wrong.

you cry about the poor girl who has sex because of the pressure. What about the poor baby that's dead.

if your willing to risk your life and have unprotected sex because people were teasing you then you may need to see some professional help you seem to have self esteem issues.

 

[granfire]

nobodys forcing anyone to be a parent we have adoptions in this country remember.

no matter how you want to rationalize it having an abortion is killing a life. Your friend had one and didn't tell anyone? Why? She ashamed of what she did because she knows it's wrong.

you cry about the poor girl who has sex because of the pressure. What about the poor baby that's dead.

if your willing to risk your life and have unprotected sex because people were teasing you then you may need to see some professional help you seem to have self esteem issues.

The poor baby?
See, we are having this pro-life problem of definition here again: What does constitute life?
Too many people believe it's the first cluster of unrefined cells, in the olden days the Kelts believed a baby was not life until it had received it's first nourishment to be welcomed into the circle of the living.

Also, as your post proofs it, yet one more time, just the term 'abortion' has the negative ring to it that the acting mother-to-be is automatically guilty without anybody knowing the circumstance of her decision.

A friend of mine told me once about 12yo girls she had on the beds on the labor/maternity ward, delivering babies...I am sure that is a perfectly normal course to let babies have babies...

 

[Tez3]

He is an author, a lecturer, and has a radio show here in the states. By walk away I mean they are still alive. The rapist, the stranger as well as the family member who commits incest, are still alive. The baby is not.

A nine month old baby is not alive until the umbilical cord is cut? You don't think that that law should be changed?

.
Here is my belief on the abortion issue. Life begins at conception. Abortion is killing a human baby. Abortion should be against the law except in the case of the death of the mother if the child is brought to term. Even in cases of rape and incest, a baby is a baby and should be allowed to live. The state should step in and once a finding of rape or incest is found, the state should provide care for the woman through pregnancy and take over the care of the child when it is born. Or, the woman could go through private charities, religous or secular, to achieve the same end. Protecting human life is the one role of the government that makes sense.

In the case of the life of the mother, it should still be up to the woman to decide if she wants to take the chance of loosing her life to deliver her child. Some women do value life that highly. Also, where both the mother and the baby would die if carried to term, you are choosing to save one life rather than let two die. I think the term is triage.

If someone murders a baby in the womb during the commision of a crime, they should recieve the death penalty as if the had killed the mother.

You don't agree with socialism or communism and believe the state shouldn't control what people do but you believe however the state should make women have the babies and the state will pay for the upkeep, ie the taxpayer.
Triage is not what you call choosing one life over another, it's a term used in assesing injuries.

You have your belief, that's fine but how would you feel if others imposed their's on you? which is what you are proposing.

Here in the UK we believe women should choose. We believe the woman is the best person to decide whether there is to be an abortion or not, you cannot walk straight into a room and have an abortion, two doctors have to sign to say you are in your right mind and that there is a reason for it.

In law the foetus is considered part of the mother until such time as they are separated and the cord cut. We do have laws to protect foetuses if they need it. Does the law need to be changed? No, because it does the job it was meant to.

For someone pro life you seem keen on ending others, you know.