Dealing with the Homeless

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
A disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe and loudly barking at each person who enters a building, demanding to know if they have change at the top of his lungs, is indeed human filth.
...
I watched as he took a peaceful afternoon and turned it into an exercise in harassment for all within earshot.

I watched, and was sickened.

No pity? No concern for him as well as the people around him?

It sickened you, and yet you didn't even confront the situation? Just p*ssed and moaned about it taking a bite out of your beautiful day, eh?

Some of these people backslid as a self-fulfilling prophesy. People over time and stress begin to act as they are judged and treated.

PLEASE, for the love of all that is holy, tell me you don't call yourself a Christian!

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
... you need to BE one of these people for a while. You probably never even worked in a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen.

Nice assumption on someone you've never met. An incorrect one,
I might add. But I don't go around toting my charitable acts,
otherwise it's not charity.

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
[BWell I have[/B]

Woopsie!

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
your attitude would be more mature and not based on ignorant FEAR.

Ah, you call it ignorant fear, but I call it "SEEING IT WITH MY OWN
EYES".

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
You have no idea the demographics of these people, I assurwe you. A HUGE persentage of the homeless are disabled veterans, for Chr*st's sake!

WoW, really? So that means that women and children are being
forced to serve in the military (it's already been stated that a
HUGE percentage of the homeless were women and children)

Are you also saying that VA benefits are a farce? Funny, I guess
I should tell my dad that the check he's been getting every month
doesn't really exist.

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
Why do you think there are so many charities out there if it's so easy to get treatment for illnesses or addictions,

Because charities are great tax shelters and pay the salaries of
a lot of people who .. *sniff* claim to care so much. If you want
to report some facts, how about finding out how much of the
donations to the United Way actually end up in the hands of
those they supposedly "help".

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
and there's plenty of jobs for people without specific skills or degrees.

Hey, more homework .. tell me how many pages of want ads are
in the New York Times today?

Call McDonald's corporate and ask how many positions they have
available in the U.S. on any given day.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Astra
It's not all that bright..

... I had already started on MAs back then and after asking him about ten times to let go and be gone, I told him that I would hit his face in, if he refused once more. Next time, he let go alright.

Compassion for people like that?

Compassion doesn't mean not hitting him if you have to. It means ONLY hitting him to let go, and not beating on him just because. If you fear the homeless now, I'm sorry. The guy may have been as a**h*le his whole life, or just desperate or deranged, or wahtever.

Those of us here with a little respect for humanity aren't trying to tell anyone not to be unprepared or lie there like a doormat. All we are saying is that even the worst human being -- their fault or not -- must be dealt with as necessary, yes, but not looked upon as less than what we all are -- human.

Here's my motto:

God doesn't ask you to like everybody. He just wants you to Love them.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kirk
Nice assumption on someone you've never met. An incorrect one, I might add. But I don't go around toting my charitable acts,
otherwise it's not charity.

...

Woopsie!

Clever ... don't quit your day job to run for office.

Ah, you call it ignorant fear, but I call it "SEEING IT WITH MY OWN
EYES".

You may as well not have eyes if you can't see the forest for the trees. It is not objective ... I still say you see with ignorance and fear. Sorry.

WoW, really? So that means that women and children are being
forced to serve in the military (it's already been stated that a
HUGE percentage of the homeless were women and children)

Are you also saying that VA benefits are a farce? Funny, I guess
I should tell my dad that the check he's been getting every month
doesn't really exist.

Because charities are great tax shelters and pay the salaries of
a lot of people who .. *sniff* claim to care so much. If you want
to report some facts, how about finding out how much of the
donations to the United Way actually end up in the hands of
those they supposedly "help".

Hey, more homework .. tell me how many pages of want ads are
in the New York Times today?

Call McDonald's corporate and ask how many positions they have
available in the U.S. on any given day.

You know, you take FACTS I stated and turned them around with irrelevant counter-examples that don't add up to quat. Shall I go through point by point? Maybe your day-job IS being a politician.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Guys. keep it civil.....




As to the job front, (This is more towards Kirks questions), having worked at both a BK and a McD, I can tell you in all honesty, they don't want the 'over educated'. McD especially.

The staff at the 1 that I worked at broke down as follows:
75% highschoolers
15% career McD. (IE started there, worked their way up, little to no college)
10% are just passing through.

5 of the employees are 'assisted living'. (In the old days we would call them retarded, but thats not PC anymore.) These folks are unfirable due to the clout of their support group.

The enviroment is an artificial preasure cooker (meaning at 'rush' times, it gets insane, and its mostly due to the people not thinking'.

The Educated/Experienced will go insane in that place. (I did)

Now, you can say "But its a job."

Yes it is, but it is one that the 'white collar' is not suited for, and the store management knows this. They have a position to fill. Which one do you choose?

1- Guy with a Law degree
2- Gal with 5 years network administration, MCSE, CISCO, A+, Net+
3- 16yr old high school kid who goes to the same school as your crew chief
4- 'Patrick', a talented kid with downs syndrome, and a speach impediment?

Due to the tax breaks you get, you take 'Patrick'. You may also hire the 16yr old. The lawyer and the geek in all probability dont even get an interview. Too over qualified, and too 'set' in their ways.

The problem with the homeless is that unless they can get a break, showing up for a job with no address, dirty, unkenpt and yes, a bit ripe, are not ways to win a position. Especially in food handling. Some places don't have shelters or clinics where they can clean up. Sometimes, there just arent the resources available. If you have 1 set of clothes, what do you wear while you wash them?

We who have so much can't comprehend the feelings of the hungry as we go by full.
:asian:

 

[Ender]

rmcrobertson:

well my point wasn't to bash liberals or anything like that. it was to show that a sequence of events can occur and create a situation that was caused by a certain action.The entire story wasn't told. Instead, the issue was politicized rather than finding the root cause of a problem or a solution. all that is reported was an increase in homelessness.

There are many reasons for homelessness, some are bad choices, some are due to bad luck, some are due to drugs, and some choose to be that way.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

We're both escelating into a flame war (at least I am) and I shouldn't assume your experience isn't valid.

I still don't agree your interpretation of what experience you have is emplematic of the conditions out there, but then that might be where you live, too.

In Buffalo, the homeless shelters are overfull in the Winter, taking women and children first. Some people in the "industry" here say over 75% of the men are veterans.

I've worked with them in various situations -- and there's no virtue in not saying it out loud when it needs to be said -- I promoted kids' exposure to the needy as a religious ed teacher, so that "feeding the hungry" wasn't throwing a can in a box so hunger could remain faceless to suburban white boys and girls.

The effect? They saw the good, the bad, and the ugly, but in a context where they would not debase themselves by looking down on the poor, sick, homeless, and even those who are drug-addicted, potentially violent, and the like. And that takes a lot of courage, even for us Christ-following types.

What I'm really trying to say is the old "walk a mile in his shoes" thing, and not just imagining whatt it's like from the outside. I still think you'd be a changed person.

 

[7starmantis]

There was this kid in my university who was purple. He stank bad, had unkempt hair, horribly outdated clothes and no fashion sense at all, he would allways ask for a ride home after school, it was bothersome and harrasing! Then, one time, I was walking down the street and this other purple guy came and grabed me and tried to beat me up! I had to kick his ****. Then, get this, I saw another purple person and she asked me what time it was! Can you believe it! I knew at that moment that all purple people were trash. All purple people were violent, no good, filthy stinking manimals.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kirk

Call McDonald's corporate and ask how many positions they have
available in the U.S. on any given day.

Does anyone honestly think they can keep a roof over their head by working at McDonalds?

Most of the "minimum wage" type jobs are for people who live with their parents, are retired, dorming on a scholarship, etc.. No judgemnt against anyone, it's just an observation, and I thinks there's some truth to it.

If the only job you could get was Paperboy, for example, would it be anything more then enough to buy a drink to dull the pain of poverty? What would the average person do if they couldn't meet shelter needs? And what if *I* was that person, unable to provide for my family? Would I steal? Would I become less than mentally stable from the strain, watching my loved ones go without? Would I resent both the people that gave me change and those who did not?

You all may say you'd be okay and pick yourself up by your jockstrap, but I'm not talking about you in particular. I'm talking about the average person (or even the below average half of humanity). Should we judge them for lack of luck, ambition, heartiness, perseverence, etc..

We're not all yogis and masters of life or our destiny. We are NOT born equal, except that we all die just the same. In between, we use and develop different gifts and live in almost different worlds from each other. As idealistic as we Americans are, we do NOT have the same opportunities as the person next to us. We have our own, and God forgive us if we don't figure it out in a single lifetime. And man forgive us if we succumb to our limitations and circumstance.

:soapbox:

 

[Kirk]

The point I've been trying to make is that there's a big damned
difference between the homeless family man that's have a rotten
run of luck, and those that have created homelessness for
themselves, on purpose, because 1) it's easier to given a handout
than to work for it 2) they have some drug addiction and can't or
won't put it down. Don't they say that the first step is admitting
you have a problem? Well no one can do that for them, can they?

The homeless people you're describing are not the ones out there
demanding my charity in a confrontational manner. I just don't
buy it, sorry.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kirk
The point I've been trying to make is that there's a big damned
difference between the homeless family man that's have a rotten
run of luck, and those that have created homelessness for
themselves, on purpose, because 1) it's easier to given a handout
than to work for it 2) they have some drug addiction and can't or
won't put it down. Don't they say that the first step is admitting
you have a problem? Well no one can do that for them, can they?

The homeless people you're describing are not the ones out there
demanding my charity in a confrontational manner. I just don't
buy it, sorry.

There will always be the intentionally poor as long as there are blind charities and liberals, etc.. But are they worse living on our scraps than people who fraud disability at their job so they can watch a plasma-screen TV in a warm apartment all day?

I'd rather buy half a sub for someone who asks for a dollar than assume because he's a jerk at that moment in his life (for whatever reason) that he doesn't deserve a break. I don't care what made him a jerk. As long as he doesn't infringe on my liberty, he's welcome to his own.

You personally don't owe him anything, except respect as a human being, regardless of what he does (or doesn't do) with himself as a person. Can we agree on that?

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
... All purple people were violent, no good, filthy stinking manimals.

<DELETED MY OWN POST FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY>

 

[rmcrobertson]

Here's a little number goin' out to all the wretched refuse from that wacky songster, William Blake...a lil' song called, "The Human Image:"

Pity could be no more
If we did not make somebody poor
And Mercy no more could be
If all were as happy as we

And mutual fear brings Peace
Till the selfish Loves increase;
Then Cruelty knits a snare
And spreads his baits with care.

He sits down with holy fears
And waters the ground with tears
Then humility takes its root
Underneath his foot

Soon spreads the dismal shade
Of Mystery over his head
And the catterpillar and the fly
Feed on the Mystery

And it bears the fruit of deceit
Ruddy and sweet to eat;
And the raven his nest has made
In its thickest shade.

The Gods of the Earth and Sea
Sought thro' nature to find this tree
But their search was all in vain
There grows one in the human brain.

They said this mystery shall never cease
The priest promotes war & the soldier peace

There souls of men are bought and sold
And milk fed infancy for gold
And youths to slaughter houses led
And beauty for a bit of bread.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Kirk
The homeless people you're describing are not the ones out there demanding my charity in a confrontational manner. I just don't buy it, sorry.

Why do you feel that you can make that distinction?
As Tupac said,"Only God can judge me". Why do we feel that as "normal, upstanding citizens" we can judge anothers life or judge what has put that person in that situation? Even if it was because of their own greed or selfishness that put them there, have you never had a temptation of greed or selfishness? Why cast stones at someone rather than try and go after the root issue? your attacking the person without trying to give any thought or consideration to what could help them. If they truly are the

disheveled, chemically altered, physically dirt-encrusted creature wandering around in traffic wearing one shoe

that you are implying they are, then why not get to know the issues of one of them, help him/her get into a program to solve the real issues, rather than just piss and moan about human filth. Aren't they refusing to address the issue by loudly asking for change? Aren't you doing the same thing by calling them human filth and manamals? neither of you are trying to address the issue.

jmho,
7sm

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
There will always be the intentionally poor as long as there are blind charities and liberals, etc.. But are they worse living on our scraps than people who fraud disability at their job so they can watch a plasma-screen TV in a warm apartment all day?

Barely ... the only difference is that they're not violating my
personal space and yelling at me, or threatening me or my family.

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
I'd rather buy half a sub for someone who asks for a dollar than assume because he's a jerk at that moment in his life (for whatever reason) that he doesn't deserve a break. I don't care what made him a jerk. As long as he doesn't infringe on my liberty, he's welcome to his own.

I used to carry around McDonald's gift certificates, and offer them
whenever I'd run into somebody that'd claim to be hungry. No
one ever accepted them, they wanted cash.

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
You personally don't owe him anything, except respect as a human being, regardless of what he does (or doesn't do) with himself as a person. Can we agree on that?

When they get on my ***, in an intimidating/threatening manner,
and get confrontational ... I don't owe him respect, I owe that to
myself and my family.

 

[7starmantis]

I proclaim this thread officially a flame war.
Every sincere and honest question or statement I have made has been overlooked in eagerness to flame someone else. Let's remember that we are here to have a friendly discusion of the martial arts. Lets show our respect for others adn each other by not divulging in a flame war. eh?

7sm

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Kirk
Barely ... the only difference is that they're not violating my
personal space and yelling at me, or threatening me or my family.

No, one is annoying you in public, while the other is destroying the fabric of society.

I used to carry around McDonald's gift certificates, and offer them
whenever I'd run into somebody that'd claim to be hungry. No
one ever accepted them, they wanted cash. [/B]

The solution? Don't give them anything. That's what I do, and rightfully so.

When they get on my ***, in an intimidating/threatening manner,
and get confrontational ... I don't owe him respect, I owe that to
myself and my family. [/B]

You don't "respect" your enemies either I suppose? I'm talking about the basic meaning of respect -- giving people what they are due. Sometimes that means not supporting their habit. Sometimes it means smiling, and saying you can't thelp them. And it means setting them straight if they put a hand on you.

It does not mean they do not deserve survival, but it does mean being given the 77th chance at making more of themselves. Or the 177th. It means not writing them off as disposable. You never know what even the worst of us may become, or at least play a part in something good in the end.

(I'm starting to think Golum now ... )

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
... Every sincere and honest question or statement I have made has been overlooked in eagerness to flame someone else. ...
7sm

Not overlooked. Irrefutable, perhaps, but not overlooked.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Recognition of reality is not a "lack of compassion." The problem with political correctness and the heightened sensitivities it creates -- sensitivities that prompt so many of us to become outraged when confronted with the "desert of the real" -- is that it demands we substitute what we wish was true for what is true.

On the other hand, some of the disparaging terms you used to describe people were clearly matters of opinion (e.g. 'manimal') and not of objective reality. I agree that wariness is needed and frankly, on balance, I would support an 'aggressive panhandling' law despite sympathy with the editorial you quoted.

I read an article today about a pizza place paying homeless people in pizza to carry a sign saying words to the effect of "Joe's Pizza paid me to carry this sign and not panhandle" (for an hour or whatever the time unit per slice was). It was meant as an advertising gimmick that helped not only the homeless but also those bothered by them--possibly more the latter than the former. I like this approach! The homeless man quoted did too (and added that he and his friends were "professional panhandlers"). I don't believe that giving money directly is the best move--it opens one up to the danger of getting too close (though saying no can aggravate the situation also, and as we always say "Give them your wallet rather than fight, for your own safety!"), plus too often it will either go to alchohol and drugs, or will be spent honestly but unwisely. Giving to a charitable organization is better in my opinion. We have an excellent one here in Terre Haute, The Lighthouse Mission.

Being wary is important--that goes without saying. Disparaging entire groups of down-on-their-luck people as you did is unnecessary and offensive. That isn't political correctness--that's sympathy. Charity to the poor is a tent of many major religions and is consistent with an "all men are equal" philosophy. I can be both proetective and compassionate. I don't need to hate, despise, or otherwise denigrate those I fight--that's the opposite of the attitude I want for myself as a martial artist. Unlike a movie martial artist, I intend to win even if the opponent hasn't already killed my brother, assaulted my spouse, and kicked my dog.

(Add me to the list of ex-Syracuse residents, 1981-1985 and summer of 1986, living off Euclid Ave. near the university the last two summers and studying karate at ECOH on Euclid.)

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Ken JP Stuczynski
Does anyone honestly think they can keep a roof over their head by working at McDonalds?

If so, see this book:

Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America
by Barbara Ehrenreich