Danger of Predators in the Outdoors

[Blindside]

Okay, is there such as being over prepared? Think of it in terms of MA, you don't walk everywhere you go armed to the teeth. What do you think are appropriate precautions to the level of threat presented? What about places where certain precautions are forbidden? For example, most National Parks that I know of forbid firearms.

Lastly, if anyone would recommend a good all around firearm for places you can carry, what would it be?

As I said on the other thread, I haven't really felt a need to take a gun into the wildnerness, but I can see why others feel the need.

There are limits on where you can take firearms, National Parks is a biggie, but so are National Wildlife Refuges if you aren't hunting. That said, my scoutmaster packed a revolver in the outside pocket of his pack wherever we would go, he wasn't going to be unprepared. (Based on later training with him, I'm pretty certain it was a Colt Python in .357 mag.)

When my family lived in Alaska it was a Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag or shotgun in 12 gauge.

Standard training and issue for biologists working in the backcountry in Alaska is a 12 gauge with slugs.

Since my main concern is cougar, the .357 mag with a heavy grain bullet makes perfect sense to me, and since I learned to shoot pistols on a Colt Python, I've always wanted one. Seems like a good excuse.

Lamont

 

[bushidomartialarts]

From my (admittedly not Ranger Rick level, but pretty extensive) wilderness experience, predators aren't really much of an issue.

It's the snakes, scorpions, spiders and such that cause a lot of injury and fatalities. Far more than bears and cougars and whatnot.

Just my two cents.

 

[Cruentus]

Okay, is there such as being over prepared? Think of it in terms of MA, you don't walk everywhere you go armed to the teeth. What do you think are appropriate precautions to the level of threat presented? What about places where certain precautions are forbidden? For example, most National Parks that I know of forbid firearms.

Lastly, if anyone would recommend a good all around firearm for places you can carry, what would it be?

For protection against animals specifically, I would say a large frame revolver like a .44 mag would be good. Revolver because of the reliability and ability to function even if it gets a little dirty. Pistol because your not looking to poach or hunt, your looking to protect yourself, so you need something you can access quickly in a close quarter situation. Plus it is easy to carry, and so forth.

As to National Parks, the ones that outlaw firearms are mainly concerned with poaching, as far as I understand it.

 

[Blindside]

As to National Parks, the ones that outlaw firearms are mainly concerned with poaching, as far as I understand it.

Yes, but the rules say "no firearms" not just "no poaching." Firearms generally have to be unavailable or unusuable.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

From my (admittedly not Ranger Rick level, but pretty extensive) wilderness experience, predators aren't really much of an issue.

It's the snakes, scorpions, spiders and such that cause a lot of injury and fatalities. Far more than bears and cougars and whatnot.

Just my two cents.

And bee stings, I have no doubt that bees lead to more deaths in the backcountry than large predators, and I have absolutely no stats to back that up.

 

[Flying Crane]

... but mid 100's to 200's are the average around here. Cougars are in the 70's-100's.

aye, i'd still hate to face one down without a firearm of some sort. Even a 200 pound black bear is a formidable opponent if you are bare handed or nearly so. Hell, that still outweighs me by 50 pounds and I don't have the claws or teeth! And those cats are QUICK when they strike, another tough customer even at 70 - 100 pounds.

I remember years ago when I was in high school, a friend of mine said that he and his father went to a circus or something, and they had a side show where you could actually wrestle with a black bear. I think it was muzzled, and the claws has been removed, but I suppose it weighed in the lighter range for a blackie. I'm sure it wasn't a full 600 pounds, but I'm guessing it was maybe 150 - 250 or something.

At any rate, they watched as these big guys would line up for their chance to wrestle with it. I don't know how big, he just said they were big guys. They would get into the ring with the bear, have at it, and when the bear got tired of it, he would just toss the guy off him like it was no big deal.

Even at a weight that might be comparable to a human, they are still far stronger.

Keep in mind that a full grown chimpanzee can weigh about 150 pounds. But that chimp is FAR FAR stronger than even a large man, strong enough to literally rip him limb from limb if he so chooses. They are built differently with a different muscle and bone leveraging advantage, and they got teeth and strong jaws as well.

I don't think you are trying to suggest otherwise, but I guess all I'm saying is, don't let an animal's body weight fool you into thinking you could take it down without a serious weapon. they can be very dangerous, regardless.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

aye, i'd still hate to face one down without a firearm of some sort. Even a 200 pound black bear is a formidable opponent if you are bare handed or nearly so. Hell, that still outweighs me by 50 pounds and I don't have the claws or teeth! And those cats are QUICK when they strike, another tough customer even at 70 - 100 pounds.

I remember years ago when I was in high school, a friend of mine said that he and his father went to a circus or something, and they had a side show where you could actually wrestle with a black bear. I think it was muzzled, and the claws has been removed, but I suppose it weighed in the lighter range for a blackie. I'm sure it wasn't a full 600 pounds, but I'm guessing it was maybe 150 - 250 or something.

At any rate, they watched as these big guys would line up for their chance to wrestle with it. I don't know how big, he just said they were big guys. They would get into the ring with the bear, have at it, and when the bear got tired of it, he would just toss the guy off him like it was no big deal.

Even at a weight that might be comparable to a human, they are still far stronger.

Keep in mind that a full grown chimpanzee can weigh about 150 pounds. But that chimp is FAR FAR stronger than even a large man, strong enough to literally rip him limb from limb if he so chooses. They are built differently with a different muscle and bone leveraging advantage, and they got teeth and strong jaws as well.

I don't think you are trying to suggest otherwise, but I guess all I'm saying is, don't let an animal's body weight fool you into thinking you could take it down without a serious weapon. they can be very dangerous, regardless.

No, Im not saying fighting a BB/Cougar would be easy, not at all. I think its just reccommended in survival manuals as an emergency option vs. playing dead because the chances of survival vs. playing dead are better with those animals. I think the odds are better that fighting them will drive them off vs. killing one bare handed. People HAVE fought off/killed BB and cougars so its a possibility. What you dont want is to tell people is "if attacked by a BB kiss your *** goodbye cause youre a goner."

Im no animal expert but regarding BB size, but I think that on a "natural diet" they average in the 100-200lb range. The huge BB's Ive seen lived in areas where garbage dumps and campers let them feast around the clock if desired.

 

[Flying Crane]

No, Im not saying fighting a BB/Cougar would be easy, not at all. I think its just reccommended in survival manuals as an emergency option vs. playing dead because the chances of survival vs. playing dead are better with those animals. I think the odds are better that fighting them will drive them off vs. killing one bare handed. People HAVE fought off/killed BB and cougars so its a possibility. What you dont want is to tell people is "if attacked by a BB kiss your *** goodbye cause youre a goner."

Im no animal expert but regarding BB size, but I think that on a "natural diet" they average in the 100-200lb range. The huge BB's Ive seen lived in areas where garbage dumps and campers let them feast around the clock if desired.

ah, full agreement here. I agree, it makes sense to fight in this case. You might still lose, but I'll take whatever chance I can get and hope to drive him off or otherwise survive it. People have even been known to get a great white shark to release a bite by striking the nose and driving fingers into the eyes. It's a bad situation, but I don't think it makes sense to just give up and go to your own slaughter.

As to the weight of black bears, you may have something there. I don't know for sure what their natural weight is and I am sure dumpster diving can help a bear put on a lot of extra weight that he might not otherwise have. I suppose time of year would have an effect as well. If it is late autumn and the bears are getting ready to hibernate, they would also be a lot bigger than they are in the early spring. And I imagine an older bear is a lot more likely to hit the bigger sizes than a younger bear. I wonder how long it takes then to become fully mature and hit "full" size for the individual.

 

[shesulsa]

What you dont want is to tell people is "if attacked by a BB kiss your *** goodbye cause youre a goner."

You're right ... I think that's the advice you give in regards to KODIAK bears. :lol2:

 

[bydand]

Up here Black Bear adult females weigh between 100-400# while the adult males weigh between 250-600# (www.maine.gov/ifw/wildlife/species/bear/index.htm ). For the area I live in, they generally fall right in the middle of the two extremes. The State denies any Cougars, but there have been too many sightings, even by their own Fish and Game people for the official stance to hold water. I don't want to tangle with even a year old cub. Held a cub about 6 or 7 months old once after his momma was hit and killed by a car and he was brought to a couple I knew who raised and released animals. He hung on to my jacket and it was all I could do to get him off and back to the owner of the place for feeding. I was amazed at how strong this little tiny cub was, I can just imagine how strong he would be at 300 or 400 pounds.

 

[MA-Caver]

Regarding item #1... ARE YOU CRAZY??? LOL. I would have backed away from that cave as fast as possible. LOL.

Well here's the thing. Backing away quickly would've probably had one falling off a 20 foot ledge that was perched just outside said entrance. So that option is out.
Also since we were in a good sized group (about 8 of us) most likely the animal would've high-tailed it outta there (via second entrance) rather than be out-numbered.
Funny thing, the trip leader knew we were all nervous about the possible proximity of a big-cat and he entered the cave first and broke the tension by calling out (high pitched voice) "here kitty kitty kitty".
I am sure that if the animal were cornered in some-way that it would've growled and hissed and probably roared/screamed in warning before we got too close to it. That would've been enough for us to turn and leave.

Re: snakes and spiders... you know I was reading "...predators in the outdoors" and gave only thought to large predators and not the small ones like snakes, spiders and scorpions. I really don't give the arachnids any thought except not to get caught in their webs (since they could drop down on you when you destroy them) but walking around the deep woods of Tenn, Ala, & Georgia I worry about copperheads and rattlers hiding in the thick brush. While I rarely (that is to say NEVER) wear shorts while hiking I still don't take chances and watch my steps.

 

[CoryKS]

For those of you who are on MySpace, I've uploaded pictures of my hike on the Ozark Trail last May. User name is the same. There's a picture of the black rattlesnake I almost stepped on. :erg:

I didn't come across any predators, but the scariest thing was the turkeys. They sit in the brush until you're right on them and then explode in all directions with much screeching and flapping of wings. Geez, give a guy a heart attack why don'tcha?

 

[Guardian]

I'm more afraid of being attacked by a rabid/sick raccoon then anything else out there. I've done my share of hiding, camping and have never run afoul so far anything that would pose a danger to me (or at least that I was aware of LOL).

Those sick raccoons though, those bad boys are fast and those claws and teeth are razor sharp.

 

[theletch1]

Around here the biggest worry I have during the day are the snakes. Rattlers and copperheads abound. At night it's the black bear (we've had prints within 10/20 feet of our front door and the coyotes. The coyotes are a big problem around here. Small dogs shouldn't be left outside at night and the idea of rabies going through a pack of them is enough to make me shudder.

 

[rdonovan1]

Of my friends who frequent time in the outdoors, one has been jumped by a cougar, another has been openly stalked while he was fishing.

Every carnivore biologist that I have ever spoken to has told me that if you spend any time in the wilderness (western US anyway) a big cat has checked you out, and you never knew about it.

Yes the odds are low, so is being caught in an avalanche while skiing, that doesn't mean an avalanche beacon isn't a good investment.

Lamont

That's why I would never consider going out into the wilderness unarmed as you can never really know for sure as to what is out there at all or as to what you will come across while you are out there.

 

[rdonovan1]

Well here's the thing. Backing away quickly would've probably had one falling off a 20 foot ledge that was perched just outside said entrance. So that option is out.
Also since we were in a good sized group (about 8 of us) most likely the animal would've high-tailed it outta there (via second entrance) rather than be out-numbered.
Funny thing, the trip leader knew we were all nervous about the possible proximity of a big-cat and he entered the cave first and broke the tension by calling out (high pitched voice) "here kitty kitty kitty".
I am sure that if the animal were cornered in some-way that it would've growled and hissed and probably roared/screamed in warning before we got too close to it. That would've been enough for us to turn and leave.

Re: snakes and spiders... you know I was reading "...predators in the outdoors" and gave only thought to large predators and not the small ones like snakes, spiders and scorpions. I really don't give the arachnids any thought except not to get caught in their webs (since they could drop down on you when you destroy them) but walking around the deep woods of Tenn, Ala, & Georgia I worry about copperheads and rattlers hiding in the thick brush. While I rarely (that is to say NEVER) wear shorts while hiking I still don't take chances and watch my steps.

I'm just wondering if you've ever actually seen any copperheads or rattlesnakes out in the wild?

The closest that I have ever come to seeing one is when I was traveling through Texas. I saw a big rattlesnake crossing the road, presumably with the intent of making a meal out of some prarie dogs that were nearby.

 

[Blindside]

I'm just wondering if you've ever actually seen any copperheads or rattlesnakes out in the wild?

I see rattlers quite regularly, you just have to look at where you step. Just like in any other setting, awareness is the first line of defense.

 

[Blindside]

Just as a heads up, the law allowing firearms under CCW laws in Parks and Refuges has not been implemented yet. Dep. of Interior has a target date of Jan, 2010 for implementation. The laws have been adjusted in the Code of Federal Regulations for both agencies, but is being delayed because the Services need time to prep for the rule changes.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'm just wondering if you've ever actually seen any copperheads or rattlesnakes out in the wild?

The closest that I have ever come to seeing one is when I was traveling through Texas. I saw a big rattlesnake crossing the road, presumably with the intent of making a meal out of some prarie dogs that were nearby.

To be honest... with coppers I haven't seen any to date, but several of my friends have said they've come across a few in their time (some with photos)... rattlers none here where I live (to date) but several out west, including one that bitten me on the thumb... (long story and in retrospect a stupid move altogether).

Dealing with any animal out in it's territory (they don't care who holds the deed) one has to give it the respect it deserves but one can still deal with the animal on it's own terms and avoid any or serious injury.
Dunno why this isn't required study at schools.

 

[rdonovan1]

To be honest... with coppers I haven't seen any to date, but several of my friends have said they've come across a few in their time (some with photos)... rattlers none here where I live (to date) but several out west, including one that bitten me on the thumb... (long story and in retrospect a stupid move altogether).

Dealing with any animal out in it's territory (they don't care who holds the deed) one has to give it the respect it deserves but one can still deal with the animal on it's own terms and avoid any or serious injury.
Dunno why this isn't required study at schools.

I think that you are so right about animals as there really is no way to predict as to what an animals behavior is going to be at any moment. This is particulary true with things like rattlesnakes and copperheads.

Animals like people tend to rely on their instincts and that is why it is always a very good idea to keep that in mind when you are dealing with animals. Especially the more dangerous ones and this point has been made over and over again by herpetologists who study venomous snakes for a living.

On more than one occasion many of them have been bitten at least once if not more because they let their guard down and started to think that the animal was tame and safe. This has happened to even the experts and I know of at least one instance in which it cost the herpetologist his life as he was not paying attention and underestimated the capability of the animal.

Probably the best known example of this is the death of Steve Irwin several years ago. He knew the dangers, but instead of being smart and keeping his distance he underestimated the animal and it cost him his life.

That's why it's always a good idea never to underestimate either humans or animals ever and to always give them both a healthy respect.