Could learning online work if..

[IYWC]

That's actually what I'm targeting with that site, I want it to supplement along with physical training. I think I wrote it up in the wrong way, but your right, that's what I'm looking for.

From what I've read of the Online site, that's what they do. And I think that is what your looking to work on as well. But I think the online component will have a stigma along with it as well, and is not a trusted source, especially for something that is rather physical. What caught my attention for the Wing Chun Online format was the interaction, and has me curious to how it work.

Next thing would be using an xBox Kinect and virtual chi sao, some what geeky.

Yeh forsure I hear that. Yeah will definitely be the next stage where you just use your Xbox or PS and it takes you through the motons. Okay Jez well thanks for the feed back and hope the Wing Chun Online helps you out!

 

[Domino]

Learning online is all good and well for shapes and form but energy and the finer points you will miss.
Go to a school and feel.

 

[Dummy]

Online never works.

 

[Instructor]

Online never works.

Would love an oppurtunity to change your mind. What programs have you tried thus far?

 

[Dummy]

Would love an oppurtunity to change your mind. What programs have you tried thus far?

I've tried a wing chun online learning program i think it was more than a year ago , granted it helped but i didn't truly understand Wing chun until i started practicing with a friend who is to my knowledge the only other wc practitioner in my city( as it is a rarity in this country for people to practice anything other than karate or the ninja arts) it was a complete coincidence that i met him and started training with him but the experience really opened my eyes to the benefits of training in a physical space with another practitioner of the same art.

So , to be truthful it'll be hard to change my mind on this one. :s

 

[StormShadow]

I've tried a wing chun online learning program i think it was more than a year ago , granted it helped but i didn't truly understand Wing chun until i started practicing with a friend who is to my knowledge the only other wc practitioner in my city( as it is a rarity in this country for people to practice anything other than karate or the ninja arts) it was a complete coincidence that i met him and started training with him but the experience really opened my eyes to the benefits of training in a physical space with another practitioner of the same art.

So , to be truthful it'll be hard to change my mind on this one. :s

Sorry to hear that. On the other hand it's working for me based on the opinions of those whom I've touched hands with. I guess it depends on the program and how it's actually taught and delivered online. And the training partners you use to practice with.

 

[Cyriacus]

Id like to think that it also depends a bit on why you want to learn (insert X here).

I mean, if you take survival skills as an example, i think everyone should learn wilderness survival. But you dont have to go out and practice to get the information. So long as you can remember the important stuff, which can be taken just from some pictures and text, its not terribly hard to figure out. Now, on the other hand, if youre prepping for some theoretical apocalypse, or if just want to 'because', actual practice becomes imperative for your goals to be attainable.

If youre expecting to learn from scratch, and learn the nuances of the technical art, i doubt you can pull that off. But thats only one possible goal. If you set realistic goals with respect to the training method, of course it can work.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's another issue, and that is that it's not difficult to see "results" and translate that into meaning that you are learning it.

It's not difficult to hurt someone. You don't need a high level of skill to do so, you don't need perfect technique to do so, you don't need a sophisticated method or system to do so. It's quite easy, in fact.

It's easy to hurt someone, or use a poorly done technique to hurt someone if you are athletic or physically strong. The effectiveness in this case depends on the athleticism or on the strength, and it gets results even tho the technique itself is not done well, the principles of the system are not well understood nor utilized.

So, if you believe you are learning a system from the video, I think there are other things to consider, other reasons why one might see "results" from their efforts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The voice of dissent here, as always. I will never endorse online/video instruction as the primary or only method of training. I believe it is fine as a supplement to direct and regular and frequent face-to-face instruction with a good instructor, and then only if the material used is directly connected to the same instructor. For example, if one's instructor created some videos to use as a reminder for students who are already working directly with him.

If you've learned some things directly from an instructor and then are travelling or relocating and not able to find another instructor, I believe you are much better off just practicing what you've already learned.

Agreed

I do not endorse visiting local schools who are not connected to your instructor, even in the same system, unless you are ready and willing to put aside what you've already learned and wholly embrace what you are learning from the new teacher.

Agree and diagree

On the agree side I am thinking Tung Kai Ying and Dong Zeng Chen both son’s of Tung Hu Long and both Grandson’s of Tung Ying Chieh but they do not look all that similar in form

On the disagree side I’m thinking Chen Xiaowang, Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Zhenglei. Their traditional forms are very much the same however their short forms are different since they made uo their own. However even they teach some things in different orders at times

I have a more applicable Wing Chun comment that agrees with you but more on that later

Here's the thing: consistency is very important. Different schools of the same system often will do things differently, even if those differences are subtle and seem to be very slight. Often those minor and slight differences can make a huge huge difference in results. Or, those slight differences can simply create conflict in how things are done. You gotta keep a consistent methodology or your training becomes sort of scizophrenic.

Agree. I have trained with 2 different Wing Chun teachers. Both trace back solidly to Ip Man and both teach the main 3 forms different and those differences range from slight to great. And based on that you simply could not train with both and get anything and you would end up, as you said Schizophrenic.

Case in point: we've recently had a visitor who trained under the same teacher that my sifu trained under, altho during a later era than my teacher. This visitor would comment on what we were doing and sometimes demonstrate to illustrate his point. I could see very clearly that some very fundamental details of how he did his stuff, right down to the very basics, is different from how we do it. If I began adjusting what I was doing to be consistent with this visitor, it would completely disrupt the methodology that I've been taught by my sifu. It would be confusing and very problematic.

I have seen this in Yang Style Taiji and Chen if you have two teachers but this is generally one is a generationor more removed. However with that said I again point to Tung Kai Ying and Dong Zeng Chen to train with both I think would be a problem. Even though they both learned form their father, Tung Hu Ling. Although Tung Kai Ying also learned from his Grandfather Tung Ying Chieh.

Even my shifu and Tung Hu Ling, who both trained under Tung Ying Chieh, do the forms a little different, but not so much as to where I would see a problem if one were able to train with both.

I know a lot of people feel that training with a variety of teachers is a great thing. It CAN be, but it can also cause problems. You need to understand what those potential problems are, and who might be a good choice of someone to train with vs. someone who would not be good for you to train with. Training with other teachers can sort of give you exposure to someone else's vision of your system and that can be a good thing. But if you try to adopt everything that different teachers show you, you will end up with a lot of material that is inconsistent and problematic and it ends up kinda like a frankenstein's monster instead of a smooth and consistent methodology.

Yes, yes you can. Particularly if one teacher has a deeper understanding than the other

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but that's my position on it. More isn't always better. Sometimes sticking with what little you've got and being really focused on it is much better.

Oh wait…sorry…grrrrr I SOOOOOO disagree with you

In more of an agreeing sort of way

 

[StormShadow]

If you're in a program that is closely monitored by your Sifu, has help set in place where you have training partners, you're able to be critiqued by your sifu in person, live and/or through video, You touch hands with your sifu periodically, you attend your school's camps, get togethers and train with other online students from your school, any perceived differences that someone may believe exists aren't there. In my opinion, there likely trying to place themselves on a high plateau as their overall or capacity for skill is higher simply bc they're in a physical kwoon twice a week. I don't know about anyone else's online program structure but mine is pretty family oriented and has hybrid portions of it. I say you can pretty much learn everything online except for when sensitivity is needed. You also need to be critiqued by your Sifu ( live in person if possible). Who knows, in 50 years with technology, you might be able to virtually feel chi soa too. May even be able to chi soa against a virtual ip man. lol

 

[StormShadow]

On the other side, if you are apart of a Everything online program, no partner needed, no camps ect. Only practicing in the air, I believe you may be able to perfect forms, but you will not be really any good at application. You need to apply what you learn and do that in a real fashion.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you're in a program that is closely monitored by your Sifu, has help set in place where you have training partners, you're able to be critiqued by your sifu in person, live and/or through video, You touch hands with your sifu periodically, you attend your school's camps, get togethers and train with other online students from your school, any perceived differences that someone may believe exists aren't there. In my opinion, there likely trying to place themselves on a high plateau as their overall or capacity for skill is higher simply bc they're in a physical kwoon twice a week. I don't know about anyone else's online program structure but mine is pretty family oriented and has hybrid portions of it. I say you can pretty much learn everything online except for when sensitivity is needed. You also need to be critiqued by your Sifu ( live in person if possible). Who knows, in 50 years with technology, you might be able to virtually feel chi soa too. May even be able to chi soa against a virtual ip man. lol

Sounds to me like this isn't really online learning. If there is frequent face-to-face with the sifu, that is where the real learning is taking place. Outside of that, with what you are describing, it sounds to me like it is just practice time on your own (which is important no matter what other arrangements are in place) with online or video supplements.

 

[Flying Crane]

On the other side, if you are apart of a Everything online program, no partner needed, no camps ect. Only practicing in the air, I believe you may be able to perfect technique, but you will not be really any good at application. You need to apply what you learn and do that in a real fashion.

You might be able to mimic what the technique looks like, even well enough to fool those who don't know much about it, but that's a far cry from perfecting it.

 

[StormShadow]

No the program is online. I am just in constant contact with my sifu and visit the actual school when I can.

 

[StormShadow]

You might be able to mimic what the technique looks like, even well enough to fool those who don't know much about it, but that's a far cry from perfecting it.

To learn any form in MA you mimic it... I disagree.

 

[Flying Crane]

To learn any form in MA you mimic it... I disagree.

but there is much more to it than mimicry. Mimicry does not mean understanding. It doesn't mean you can do the technique well. It doesn't mean you understand what drives the technique, where power comes from, etc. Those things are often not visually apparent, and need a lot of direct feedback before you begin to understand it. Mimicry only means that on the surface, on a superficial level, it looks like the same thing.

 

[Flying Crane]

No the program is online. I am just in constant contact with my sifu and visit the actual school when I can.

well then for you, it is not really online training. Perhaps your results are better than for others in the program? I dunno.

hey, ultimately if you are happy with it, then keep doing it. From my experience, there are too many things deficient in the learning model, that cannot be made up without some serious face-to-face on a regular basis with a good instructor. So I do not encourage it and I would never do it myself and I simply offer up my advice, which you are welcome to take or discard as you see fit. But if you are satisfied with it, then keep doing it.

 

[StormShadow]

Appreciate that. I've studied other martial arts in a physical school before a few times a week. And I do agree, many of the online programs look as if they are crap. I've learned more from my sifu online in just a few months than months of training in a physical school previously. Granted, I am comparing different arts but the fact remains, it depends on the Teacher, his program, your dedication, and the support the program provides. It is certainly not impossible. If done correctly, very achievable. So for those who aren't able to train in person constantly as they would like, I would advise them to conduct research and seek an authentic program with an authentic Sifu. One who cares whether or not you are learning and applying wing chun principles correctly. Become part of a program where even though online, it's the closet thing you can get to a in person kwoon.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll add another thought or two here. I don't know anything about you personally, nor about your skills and abilities. But, IF IF IF it is possible for someone to actually learn in a quality way, a martial method and system online as the primary and/or only mode of instruction, then I think it is a rare individual who can be successful at it. You say that it depends on the teacher and his program, and yes that would be true. But it also depends heavily on the student trying to learn, and I would wager that the vast majority of people who might be inclined to try it will not have good results. They may believe that they have good results, but in reality they will not. So while there may be some gifted few who can be successful if they are using the right program, there are far far far more who will not be successful. I think to present it as a mainstream option for anyone who wants to learn it would be misguided.

but of course this is also true of many students who train with a real teacher. Many simply don't do well in the martial arts, regardless of the method of instruction.

That's my final two cents on it.

 

[StormShadow]

My last thought on this, unless you are living with your sifu and training with him every day 5-7 days a week then a properly structured online program with in person training partners and live critiques by your sifu, are in actuality not very different from attending a kwoon, following along in class, then breaking up to do partner work, in my experience. I will grant you that you need to be able to be redirected by your sifu with the sensitivity portion of wing chun, which is a great deal besides learning the forms. But, a proper online program should hold camps where it's students can attend and receive this interaction and possible corrections/adjustments to their application and or technique. I was once of the mind set, "an online martial arts program... what the heck is that". I gave it a try but just happened to find a thoroughly interactive program with sifu & community support. I do not place limits on people. People can achieve some amazing things in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In this case, there aren't any obstacles that insurmountable.