Could learning online work if..

[Flying Crane]

Agree. I have trained with 2 different Wing Chun teachers. Both trace back solidly to Ip Man and both teach the main 3 forms different and those differences range from slight to great. And based on that you simply could not train with both and get anything and you would end up, as you said Schizophrenic.

can't seem to help myself today, adding some more comments. Anyway, I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I had something like 3-4 years of training thru a Community College phys. ed. program. The sifu was a student of Chris Chan for about 30 years or so, and then became a student of Chris' brother Stanley, for a number of years, ten or so I think. Well both Chris and Stanley were students of Ip Man, knew Bruce Lee, all that yadda yadda that doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally.

Anyway, Chris is known for taking a very power-heavy approach to the training. His students do the forms, especially Siu Nim Tao with heavy tension, and build up power in that way. They tend to be very heavy-handed when doing chi-sau. This power-approach fundamentally guides how they do everything in their training. Well that can work and some of those guys are pretty tough. But I've heard some criticisms that a lot of wing chun doesn't approach it that way. That power-heavy approach is not typical. More emphasis is placed on sensitivity. You might see Chris' power approach as wanting to use a hammer to fix everything, when a screwdriver might work better. Sure, you can pound a screw in with a hammer. It'll work. But using a screwdriver will do it better, and won't strip the wood with the screw threads in the process so in the end it works better The screw holds better when driven with a screwdriver, than when pounded with a hammer.

So if you train with a power-heavy approach, then train with a different sifu who doesn't work power in the same way, you will get conflicting instruction. Which way do you practice? It's not just a matter of the sequence of the forms being the same. That's something else that Chris has done, he's modified the forms. That's not such a big deal in my mind. It's the underlying approach that he takes to his training and his instruction. All that power. It might be a valid approach in it's way (there are some tough fellows who train under him), but if you cross over with other teachers who don't take that same approach, that's where problems arise. If you make a complete switch, then OK, but if you want to stay true to Chris' approach, AND follow someone else's approach without one giving way to the other, that's a real problem.

that's a real example of the kinds of conflicts that I'm thinking of.

 

[Xue Sheng]

can't seem to help myself today, adding some more comments. Anyway, I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I had something like 3-4 years of training thru a Community College phys. ed. program. The sifu was a student of Chris Chan for about 30 years or so, and then became a student of Chris' brother Stanley, for a number of years, ten or so I think. Well both Chris and Stanley were students of Ip Man, knew Bruce Lee, all that yadda yadda that doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally.

Anyway, Chris is known for taking a very power-heavy approach to the training. His students do the forms, especially Siu Nim Tao with heavy tension, and build up power in that way. They tend to be very heavy-handed when doing chi-sau. This power-approach fundamentally guides how they do everything in their training. Well that can work and some of those guys are pretty tough. But I've heard some criticisms that a lot of wing chun doesn't approach it that way. That power-heavy approach is not typical. More emphasis is placed on sensitivity. You might see Chris' power approach as wanting to use a hammer to fix everything, when a screwdriver might work better. Sure, you can pound a screw in with a hammer. It'll work. But using a screwdriver will do it better, and won't strip the wood with the screw threads in the process so in the end it works better The screw holds better when driven with a screwdriver, than when pounded with a hammer.

So if you train with a power-heavy approach, then train with a different sifu who doesn't work power in the same way, you will get conflicting instruction. Which way do you practice? It's not just a matter of the sequence of the forms being the same. That's something else that Chris has done, he's modified the forms. That's not such a big deal in my mind. It's the underlying approach that he takes to his training and his instruction. All that power. It might be a valid approach in it's way (there are some tough fellows who train under him), but if you cross over with other teachers who don't take that same approach, that's where problems arise. If you make a complete switch, then OK, but if you want to stay true to Chris' approach, AND follow someone else's approach without one giving way to the other, that's a real problem.

that's a real example of the kinds of conflicts that I'm thinking of.

There was a bit more to it than just the forms. One used much more tension than the other. One was considerably more relaxed than the other and one actually had a better attitude than the other and his approach to teaching was much more friendly and relaxed and he is actually two generations away from Ip Man and the other is 1 generation away

I do not see how you could train with both and come out with anything coherent. There are to many approaches between them that come from opposite sides of the spectrum.

It was not only the forms



so HA...we agree again...that'll learn ya to mess with ME :uhyeah:

 

[Flying Crane]

My last thought on this, unless you are living with your sifu and training with him every day 5-7 days a week then a properly structured online program with in person training partners and live critiques by your sifu, are in actuality not very different from attending a kwoon, following along in class, then breaking up to do partner work, in my experience. I will grant you that you need to be able to be redirected by your sifu with the sensitivity portion of wing chun, which is a great deal besides learning the forms. But, a proper online program should hold camps where it's students can attend and receive this interaction and possible corrections/adjustments to their application and or technique. I was once of the mind set, "an online martial arts program... what the heck is that". I gave it a try but just happened to find a thoroughly interactive program with sifu & community support. I do not place limits on people. People can achieve some amazing things in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles. In this case, there aren't any obstacles that insurmountable.

I think it depends on how often you are able to meet with the sifu and get those corrections, and what is the quality of that interaction time. If it's a ton of students meeting all at once and sifu doesn't have the time to give one-on-one corrections, then the quality of the time spent isn't very high. But, if there are frequent meetings with high quality interactions, then the online aspect becomes more of a supplementary issue. Like I said earlier, the real instruction happens with sifu, while the online part just augments the practice time when away from the sifu.

I do not believe you need to be in class with sifu 5-7 times a week. In fact, I believe that can be detrimental because it teaches you to be reliant on Sifu all the time. It encourages you to NOT take ownership of the material and of your training. As a beginner, it is more important to be in class more often, tho practice time alone is still important. As your skill and knowledge increase, I would argue that it becomes more important to spend more of your time practicing on your own, and you need less time with Sifu. If your foundation was properly built when you were a beginner and intermediate student, then as an advanced student your perceptive ability and your ability to understand the material and recognize how it all fits together is much greater. You need less hand-holding from Sifu even when you are learning new material. You can learn something new, and "own" it more quickly than you could as a beginner.

But again, this all depends on how well your foundation was built in the beginning, and how well you understand the priciples of the system, vs. simply memorizing "the curriculum". That curriculum should simply illustrate how the principles work. It is more of an example and a way to practice the principles, rather than becoming an end in and of itself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think it depends on how often you are able to meet with the sifu and get those corrections, and what is the quality of that interaction time. If it's a ton of students meeting all at once and sifu doesn't have the time to give one-on-one corrections, then the quality of the time spent isn't very high. But, if there are frequent meetings with high quality interactions, then the online aspect becomes more of a supplementary issue. Like I said earlier, the real instruction happens with sifu, while the online part just augments the practice time when away from the sifu.

I do not believe you need to be in class with sifu 5-7 times a week. In fact, I believe that can be detrimental because it teaches you to be reliant on Sifu all the time. It encourages you to NOT take ownership of the material and of your training. As a beginner, it is more important to be in class more often, tho practice time alone is still important. As your skill and knowledge increase, I would argue that it becomes more important to spend more of your time practicing on your own, and you need less time with Sifu. If your foundation was properly built when you were a beginner and intermediate student, then as an advanced student your perceptive ability and your ability to understand the material and recognize how it all fits together is much greater. You need less hand-holding from Sifu even when you are learning new material. You can learn something new, and "own" it more quickly than you could as a beginner.

But again, this all depends on how well your foundation was built in the beginning, and how well you understand the priciples of the system, vs. simply memorizing "the curriculum". That curriculum should simply illustrate how the principles work. It is more of an example and a way to practice the principles, rather than becoming an end in and of itself.

Basically if you are using DVD training and meeting with your shifu once a year for a couple days with 25 or more other people...... it is not going to work well.

 

[StormShadow]

can't seem to help myself today, adding some more comments. Anyway, I'm not a wing chun guy anymore, but I had something like 3-4 years of training thru a Community College phys. ed. program. The sifu was a student of Chris Chan for about 30 years or so, and then became a student of Chris' brother Stanley, for a number of years, ten or so I think. Well both Chris and Stanley were students of Ip Man, knew Bruce Lee, all that yadda yadda that doesn't mean a whole lot to me personally.

Anyway, Chris is known for taking a very power-heavy approach to the training. His students do the forms, especially Siu Nim Tao with heavy tension, and build up power in that way. They tend to be very heavy-handed when doing chi-sau. This power-approach fundamentally guides how they do everything in their training. Well that can work and some of those guys are pretty tough. But I've heard some criticisms that a lot of wing chun doesn't approach it that way. That power-heavy approach is not typical. More emphasis is placed on sensitivity. You might see Chris' power approach as wanting to use a hammer to fix everything, when a screwdriver might work better. Sure, you can pound a screw in with a hammer. It'll work. But using a screwdriver will do it better, and won't strip the wood with the screw threads in the process so in the end it works better The screw holds better when driven with a screwdriver, than when pounded with a hammer.

So if you train with a power-heavy approach, then train with a different sifu who doesn't work power in the same way, you will get conflicting instruction. Which way do you practice? It's not just a matter of the sequence of the forms being the same. That's something else that Chris has done, he's modified the forms. That's not such a big deal in my mind. It's the underlying approach that he takes to his training and his instruction. All that power. It might be a valid approach in it's way (there are some tough fellows who train under him), but if you cross over with other teachers who don't take that same approach, that's where problems arise. If you make a complete switch, then OK, but if you want to stay true to Chris' approach, AND follow someone else's approach without one giving way to the other, that's a real problem.

that's a real example of the kinds of conflicts that I'm thinking of.

That's a good example. In fact, using that power approach fly's in the face of what wing chun is. Ultimately, would you not end up using force against force? What about the idea of when your opponent contracts you expand and vice versa? If they were students of yip man then it seems odd they would adopt different principles that what wing chun is known for. To me it violates the whole economy of energy principle. That's interesting but if can see if you are taught regular wing chun principles vs the ones you've mentioned how that could be an issue but I would say that person has to decide what works for them in that case.

 

[StormShadow]

Basically if you are using DVD training and meeting with your shifu once a year for a couple days with 25 or more other people...... it is not going to work well.

of course not if your aren't properly critiqued, using live video and applying it against a wing chun practitioner

 

[StormShadow]

Just as it was once thought westerns could not learn the arts because they were not of the culture. My things have changed.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's a good example. In fact, using that power approach fly's in the face of what wing chun is. Ultimately, would you not end up using force against force? What about the idea of when your opponent contracts you expand and vice versa? If they were students of yip man then it seems odd they would adopt different principles that what wing chun is known for. To me it violates the whole economy of energy principle. That's interesting but if can see if you are taught regular wing chun principles vs the ones you've mentioned how that could be an issue but I would say that person has to decide what works for them in that case.

That is a common criticism of Chris' approach, tho like I said, he's got some tough students who can be very effective. I'm not a wing chun guy so I'm not gonna comment on which is the better approach, but it's a good example of what kind of differences you might find out there, from one teacher to the next, even those who studied under the same teacher. That's where the mix-and-match approach just really breaks down and can have some serious problems. That's what I was getting at earlier when I was talking about consistency being very important.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just as it was once thought westerns could not learn the arts because they were not of the culture. My things have changed.

That is not why westerners were not taught and to be totally honest if you truly want to do the CMA styles right you actually do need a bit of understanding of the culture from which they came

 

[StormShadow]

That is not why westerners were not taught and to be totally honest if you truly want to do the CMA styles right you actually do need a bit of understanding of the culture from which they came

It most certainly was part of the reason. To deny it is absurd. And I do agree you do also need to learn the culture from which it extended.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It most certainly was part of the reason. To deny it is absurd. And I do agree you do also need to learn the culture from which it extended.

Sorry, no. Westerners were not denied access because they were not part of the culture, they were denied access for many reasons one of those being racial.

So to say it was not being part of the culture, which is defined as the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. shows a lack of understanding of the word.

It had little to do with being part of the culture. You could be Kwai Chang Cane and born and raised in China but you are not going to be taught because you are half white. Not culture in that case, he would be part of the culture...that is racism.

And this has little to do with any of your post and is most certainly not a justification for learning a CMA via DVD. The fact that westerners were once not being taught any CMA, and they now are, has nothing to do with what you are proposing nor does it make your case in any way shape or form.

 

[StormShadow]

Sorry, no. Westerners were not denied access because they were not part of the culture, they were denied access for many reasons one of those being racial.

So to say it was not being part of the culture, which is defined as the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. shows a lack of understanding of the word.

It had little to do with being part of the culture. You could be Kwai Chang Cane and born and raised in China but you are not going to be taught because you are half white. Not culture in that case, he would be part of the culture...that is racism.

And this has little to do with any of your post and is most certainly not a justification for learning a CMA via DVD. The fact that westerners were once not being taught any CMA, and they now are, has nothing to do with what you are proposing nor does it make your case in any way shape or form.

Please do not lecture me about the understanding of the word culture. Culture - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. Race and ethnicity do share similar characteristics. How you cannot see that is evident on how you try to lecture me on the subject. The reasoning for not teaching westerns was not only simply bc their skin was white. Factors stemmed from cultural aspects as well. So you're wrong.

Another point that you fail to see is how it relates to the changing of mindsets. Again, you cannot look beyond whats in front of you to see the grand picture. Your statements actually justify your thinking and outlook.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Please do not lecture me about the understanding of the word culture. Culture - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. Race and ethnicity do share similar characteristics. How you cannot see that is evident on how you try to lecture me on the subject. The reasoning for not teaching westerns was not only simply bc their skin was white. Factors stemmed from cultural aspects as well. So you're wrong.

Another point that you fail to see is how it relates to the changing of mindsets. Again, you cannot look beyond whats in front of you to see the grand picture. Your statements actually justify your thinking and outlook.

Interesting response.....rather telling actually.... shows a lack of understanding of culture and history too..... not worth wasting time here anymore....

you have a nice day

 

[wtxs]

Please do not lecture me about the understanding of the word culture. Culture - the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group. Race and ethnicity do share similar characteristics. How you cannot see that is evident on how you try to lecture me on the subject. The reasoning for not teaching westerns was not only simply bc their skin was white. Factors stemmed from cultural aspects as well. So you're wrong.

Another point that you fail to see is how it relates to the changing of mindsets. Again, you cannot look beyond whats in front of you to see the grand picture. Your statements actually justify your thinking and outlook.

Interesting response.....rather telling actually.... shows a lack of understanding of culture and history too..... not worth wasting time here anymore....

you have a nice day

I'll have to agree with Xue Sheng, Stormshadow. You do need an lesson in history my friend. Amongst others, Google the Opium War.

The racial issue (outsiders) has always been there, CMs are taught to chines only. Only if you can go back in time ... then you can tell us we don't know sh$t.

 

[StormShadow]

Interesting response.....rather telling actually.... shows a lack of understanding of culture and history too..... not worth wasting time here anymore....

you have a nice day

I decided this in my previous post as it pertained to your lack of understanding and viewing how topics are related. Poor vision. I hope you have a better day!

 

[StormShadow]

Again, if you cannot understand how racial issues tie into cultural differences... there is nothing more to say.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Post error, my bad, see next post

 

[Xue Sheng]

I decided this in my previous post as it pertained to your lack of understanding and viewing how topics are related. Poor vision. I hope you have a better day!

So appreantly I have poor vision because I have a better understanding of, and more knowledge of Chinese history, culture and the Martial arts history of China than you... and I don't agree with your online/distance training silliness.....:hmm:....You know...I'm ok with that

 

[StormShadow]

So appreantly I have poor vision because I have a better understanding of, and more knowledge of Chinese history, culture and the Martial arts history of China than you... and I don't agree with your online/distance training silliness.....:hmm:....You know...I'm ok with that

haha @ silliness.... ok kid.
uhh yea... if you say so.

 

[mograph]

What's the topic again?