Teaching Kids WC/WT forbidden

[Si-Je]

After the closure of the school, we thought we'd try working for a "non-profit" outfit for kids teaching Karate/TKD. The guy said we could teach Wing Chun as long as we adapted it to his curriculum and format.
We did this. Simplfing Wing Chun so kids could pick it up much easier, the kids and parents loved it. We were to do a 6 week kind of internship and then we'd be left to teaching two locations on our own.
When the new semester started I had to get the higher belts up to speed with their new charts and the class ended up being 100% WC. He was furious.
He told us that he'd been talking to other Sifu's online and around the area and that they firmly stated that children lack the cordination and basicly I.Q. to learn WC, but gave them credit for having the negative motivations of adults in that they could hurt eachother with the training.
We've heard this bunk before, and for the past two years have had no problem teaching kids WC as well as honor in respect to when to use it, and the responsibility of knowing it.
He was also afraid that our kids would "win" in his closed tournament too much and hurt his other instructors kids "self-esteme" too much and that the other kids would want to learn WC. ????!!!!???!
Dude's taking 90% of what we bring in at a location and is griping that more students would come to our location.
Then he took the school from us in the "rich" area and forbade us from teaching WC. But, it was okay for us to teach it to the gehetto kids at the location where NONE of his instructors want to teach. I grew up in that neighborhood. And the kids there really REALLY need WC. But the entire deal really has me ticked off.

If other Sifu's don't want the responsbility of teaching kids, each to their own. If other Sifu's can't figure out how to teach kids, or don't want to deal with it fine. But that's their opinion and they should refrain from stepping on other WC teacher's toes about it.
Frankly, my OPINION on teaching in general is this. If you can't break WC down enough to explain it to a child you don't really need to be teaching. WC is SIMPLICITY, and too many people over analyze the art to death. Thus, making it less effective, overly complicated, and unspontaneous.
Maybe this is more of this Kung Fu/Wing Chun politicing, maybe the guy is just a chicken and is hiding his opinion behind others. But, we've heard this view point from other Sifu's in our area before.

As I've said before, I have very different viewpoints of WC than others, and am not impressed with the politicing either, nor do I care.

My husband and I have created a really great children's curriculum and are going to persue teaching it on our own. If other Sifu's have a problem with it, tough. We are unfederated and do not answer to any teacher, as is more and more my preference.

 

[Si-Je]

(Had to repost, wouldn't let me edit)

After the closure of the school, we thought we'd try working for a "non-profit" outfit for kids teaching Karate/TKD. The guy said we could teach Wing Chun as long as we adapted it to his curriculum and format.
We did this. Simplfying the way we taught Wing Chun so kids could pick it up much easier, the kids and parents loved it. All set to a 40 minute class once a week. We were to do a 6 week kind of internship and then we'd be left to teaching two locations on our own.
When the new semester started I had to get the higher belts up to speed with their new charts and the class ended up being 100% WC. He was furious. He said he didn't want an ALL WC class, which I assured him it wouldn't be, that I just needed to get the higher ranking students practicing on what they will have to know. (we started with higher belt students with a TKD background)

He told us that he'd been talking to other Sifu's online and around the area and that they firmly stated that children lack the coordination and basicly I.Q. to learn WC, but gave them credit for having the negative motivations of adults in that they could hurt people with the training.

We've heard this bunk before, and for the past two years have had no problem teaching kids WC as well as instilling honor in respect to when to use it, and the responsibility of knowing it, stressing compassion, and understanding.
He was also afraid that our kids would "win" in his closed tournament too much and hurt his other instructors kids "self-esteeme" too much and that the other kids would want to learn WC from us instead. ????!!!!???! What would that matter? Dude's taking 90% of what we bring in at a location and is griping that more students would come to our location?!

Then he took the school from us in the "rich" area and stated that his boss forbade us from teaching WC. But, it was okay for us to teach it to the gehetto kids at the location where NONE of his instructors want to teach. This is the location we told him that he had lost many students due to the fact that they were getting beat up pretty regularly. I grew up in that neighborhood. That's an everyday common deal, fighting, and bs. And the kids there really REALLY need WC. He simply stated that "that was their problem." But the entire deal really has me ticked off. Outrageous! You don't go to a mechanic to have your car fixed and when it breaks down because of his work have the guy say, "well, that's your problem!" Or go to a doctor and get sicker and have him state, "oh, well, that's your problem!"

Irresponsible.
Despicable.
And disgusting behavior!

I seem to keep running into this mentality in the martial arts community in reguards to teaching, especially kids. This is totally unacceptable! And a total waste of the parents and kids time and money. I am NOT in the business to have kids hit re-breakable boards, yell alot, and learn in-effective garbage (I've Taken better karate, Tang soo do, and such than what is taught here) to build up a child's self-esteem with falsehood, just to have them completely devastated when they get hurt and find they can't defend themselves!

If other Sifu's don't want the responsbility of teaching kids, each to their own. If other Sifu's can't figure out how to teach kids, or don't want to deal with it fine. But that's their opinion and they should refrain from stepping on other WC teacher's toes about it. And acting like their the expert in these matters. Who do they really think they are? How dare they make generalizing statements reguarding children when they spend NO time teaching children?!!

Frankly, my OPINION on teaching in general is this. If you can't break WC down enough to explain it to a child you don't really need to be teaching. WC is SIMPLICITY, and too many people over analyze the art to death. Thus, making it less effective, overly complicated, and methodically mechanical. The kid's I've taught have picked up WC faster than any adult we've EVER taught. They don't have the preconcieved notions on how to fight and such that adults have. Their sponges.
It is scientific fact that as we get older we LOSE the ability to learn as we did as a child. If kids can learn 2 and 3 languages at a time, I know they can handle the simple priciples of WC.

Maybe this is more of this Kung Fu/Wing Chun politicing, maybe the guy is just a chicken and is hiding his opinion behind others. But, we've heard this view point from other Sifu's in our area before. I think it's weak. We don't live in the kind of world where kids are just save and okay and it doesn't matter what you teach them as self defense. We live in a world where for example, here in Texas a 6 year old girl was raped, and hung by the neck until dead in her garage by mom's live in boyfriend. Where some dude kills both brothers of a family, rapes the sisters, and kills the single mom. Do these Sifu's really wanna make the statement that these kids didn't need, or deserve to know a little WC? That they can't tell the difference between right and wrong and know when to use it? So many kids get kidnapped here and never come home alive, ever, that they started the Amber Alert system for missing kids right in my hometown here in Texas. It's nationally used now. Because these kids end up dead or worse.

Parents know this.
The kids here know this.

This is why his rention rate is crap. This is why he processes white belts every semester to get all the money he can before they leave the system. This is why all these teachers do this. And this is why WC is forbidden? Because it's too effective for a child?!

As I've said before, I have very different viewpoints of WC than others, and am not impressed with the politicing either, nor do I care, until people make it my business by interferring with mine. I don't care who these guys are, masters, sifu's whatever. What they are doing is hurting the art by shutting it off from kids and women. For this was the best opportunity I've ever had to reach women. Already had 2-3 mothers that wanted to take the classes. never could get that many in the past 2 years! ARRRGGGHH! so frustrated!

My husband and I have created a really great children's curriculum and are going to pursue teaching it on our own. If other Sifu's have a problem with it, tough. We are unfederated and do not answer to any teacher, as is more and more my preference. Because it gives us the freedom to evolve, adapt, and find the best ways to teach our students. Plus, they don't have to be involved in the politics of my Sifu can beat up yours.

Although, as a bonus the guy let us know my hubbie has gotten a "reputation" for "stealing" other Sifu's in the area's students. Pretty silly. These guys have been sending their students to our classes for over two years to "check us out" or whatever. We didn't even know until they signed up for the classes and told us that they had been taking from someone else. (And that their teacher sent them to us) If your going to send spies, then make sure they don't prefer the other teacher to you. lol!
Whatever. It's like some B-movie old Kung-Fu theater. entertaining, cheesy, but mostly annoying.

Man, had to vent. This has been upsetting me for two weeks now. And I figure I'd check the waters to see what ya'll think by just jumping in feet first.
Pretty ticked at the WC community teaching wise right now, and will probably make a pretty big stink about it in my neck of the woods.

 

[brocklee]

Hi Si-je

I love reading your posts but disagree with this one. WC shouldn't be taught to children or the gwilo...HAHAHA

This must be settled in COMBAT! (hand slams down on the table)

Even though I'm joking, my sifu also believes that you shouldn't train children. The mind has to develop.

 

[Si-Je]

lol! Like Bruce Lee, Giwilo, hehe

Honestly, the curriculum only covers grade 1 till they reach black belt, (2 years, or their older) to learn past grade 1.

We've had three kids, 9, 10, and 11 that we started teaching grade 2 based on their maturity level, plus were just good kids. The picked it up as well as any adult.

This curriculum is formatted for 45 min. classes (with TKD kicks too cus their fun for the kids) once a week. We want to do two days a week when we start teaching for ourselves again.

I wish I could have started training sooner as a kid. It would have saved me a few butt kickin's as a kid. I really love kids and just think they deserve better than what is so popular. Grade 1 should be simple enough for them, and effective enough too. Plus, we don't focus as much on chain punching for the kids. Mainly focus on getting them to deflect and punch once at the same time, then kick and step as they get 6 months into it. Focusing more on deflection than blitzing, or chain punching.

I figure we'll make some folks uncomfortable. But I think people really underestimate kids, their sharp as tacks, and much hipper these days.

 

[wck dallas]

I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".

I know that kids learn TKD..Karate..etc. etc. and some real damage could be done to other kids from these arts aswell, but as you alluded to, these schools are mostly crap "black belt" programs aimed at teaching kids discipline and structure....and perhaps a false sense of security...

At Authentic Kung fu, where I train....again I ca'nt speak for WC abroad... WC can be "mastered" in 5-7 years. And I'm not sure 10-13 year old kids should be trained in Dim Mak etc.

Hell, I'm not even allowed to watch the advanced classes and I'm 32 years old ! ... those classes are closed to the public and to us less advanced wing chun students aswell.

In our less advanced class, we learn to punch to the throat...gouge eyeballs...strike to the temple...etc. so god knows what crazy stuff is being tought behind those closed doors.

Of course you could teach a watered down wing chun... but that kinda sucks for whoever is paying for it.

 

[Tez3]

I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".

I know that kids learn TKD..Karate..etc. etc. and some real damage could be done to other kids from these arts aswell, but as you alluded to, these schools are mostly crap "black belt" programs aimed at teaching kids discipline and structure....and perhaps a false sense of security...

At Authentic Kung fu, where I train....again I ca'nt speak for WC abroad... WC can be "mastered" in 5-7 years. And I'm not sure 10-13 year old kids should be trained in Dim Mak etc.

Hell, I'm not even allowed to watch the advanced classes and I'm 32 years old ! ... those classes are closed to the public and to us less advanced wing chun students aswell.

In our less advanced class, we learn to punch to the throat...gouge eyeballs...strike to the temple...etc. so god knows what crazy stuff is being tought behind those closed doors.

Of course you could teach a watered down wing chun... but that kinda sucks for whoever is paying for it.

I'm thinking that you didn't mean to sound so insulting to those of us that teach children martial arts?

I teach children in two age groups 4-7 and 7-14, the latter group are taught properly, they learn TSD,BJJ, Judo and self defence. The self defence is appropriate to the age group and we know it works. All our techniques do. We don't run Black Belt clubs, we don't aim to teach discipline or structure as a main subject, we teach martial arts, we are also a 'fighting' club.In the many years of teaching children I've never had a problem with the children using it outside the club inappropriately.

We are also an 'open' club, anyone is welcome, we don't have secret classes.

Si-Je, go ahead and teach children! There's very little more rewarding.

I know little about Wing Chun but I doubt it's so different from other martial arts that it can't be taught to children.

 

[brocklee]

I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".

I know that kids learn TKD..Karate..etc. etc. and some real damage could be done to other kids from these arts aswell, but as you alluded to, these schools are mostly crap "black belt" programs aimed at teaching kids discipline and structure....and perhaps a false sense of security...

At Authentic Kung fu, where I train....again I ca'nt speak for WC abroad... WC can be "mastered" in 5-7 years. And I'm not sure 10-13 year old kids should be trained in Dim Mak etc.

Hell, I'm not even allowed to watch the advanced classes and I'm 32 years old ! ... those classes are closed to the public and to us less advanced wing chun students aswell.

In our less advanced class, we learn to punch to the throat...gouge eyeballs...strike to the temple...etc. so god knows what crazy stuff is being tought behind those closed doors.

Of course you could teach a watered down wing chun... but that kinda sucks for whoever is paying for it.

This is definitely a good reason. I've seen black belt kids get their butt's whooped by just a regular child that has no training. A WC child just has to perform the motions to be effective. A black belt kid thinks he can throw a HUGE round house to the head, when infact he will probably end up missing and it will turn into a kid on kid grappling session. The WC kid will end up having a direct line of attack and it will be simple to beat up others.

 

[wck dallas]

I do appologize...it was not my intention to insult you or anyone else.
Certainly there are many schools that are great at teaching there MA to kids...and I'm sure your school is one of them.

I should have said "in my experience".....

 

[brocklee]

I'm thinking that you didn't mean to sound so insulting to those of us that teach children martial arts?

I teach children in two age groups 4-7 and 7-14, the latter group are taught properly, they learn TSD,BJJ, Judo and self defence. The self defence is appropriate to the age group and we know it works. All our techniques do. We don't run Black Belt clubs, we don't aim to teach discipline or structure as a main subject, we teach martial arts, we are also a 'fighting' club.In the many years of teaching children I've never had a problem with the children using it outside the club inappropriately.

We are also an 'open' club, anyone is welcome, we don't have secret classes.

Si-Je, go ahead and teach children! There's very little more rewarding.

I know little about Wing Chun but I doubt it's so different from other martial arts that it can't be taught to children.

You should learn more about WC before directing people to teach it to children....it isn't know as the deadliest kung fu for no reason (i know, double negatives) hehe

Karate, TKD, and all those other MA's are great for them. They're fun, they teach comradery, get the kids stretching and exercising, add self defense and a good deal of respect and discipline. WC only teaches to fight effectively and hopefully win. No moral value is taught, no exercising (unless the practitioner wishes), its not there to create discipline and ultimately is a disrespectful fighting style. It simply is a tool and if in the wrong hands (a child) can be used in an effectively wrong manner.

 

[brocklee]

I think if Si-Je wishes to teach children, she's making the right decision because she is very wise. A few children taught here and there and under a watchful eye of someone that is respectable shouldn't pose a threat.

Opening a hundred schools across the US to teach children to become fighting machines....that could be pretty bad.

 

[Tez3]

This is definitely a good reason. I've seen black belt kids get their butt's whooped by just a regular child that has no training. A WC child just has to perform the motions to be effective. A black belt kid thinks he can throw a HUGE round house to the head, when infact he will probably end up missing and it will turn into a kid on kid grappling session. The WC kid will end up having a direct line of attack and it will be simple to beat up others.

Oh and we don't have Black belt kids. The don't do 'huge' roundhouses to the head, they rarely miss their punches and kicks anyway. Yhey also know when and when not to use their MA.

Our kids go onto be MMA fighters.Winning ones who can also defend themselves when needed.


Please don't turn the excellent OP into an argument over who's style's better by running down other MA.

 

[brocklee]

Oh and we don't have Black belt kids. The don't do 'huge' roundhouses to the head, they rarely miss their punches and kicks anyway. Yhey also know when and when not to use their MA.

Our kids go onto be MMA fighters.Winning ones who can also defend themselves when needed.


Please don't turn the excellent OP into an argument over who's style's better by running down other MA.

I've seen OP used a couple of times before here...what's it stand for?

thx in advance

 

[Tez3]

I've seen OP used a couple of times before here...what's it stand for?

thx in advance

Depending on the sentence it's either original post or original poster.

I know enough about martial arts to know that if a good instructor thinks they can teach and pass on knowledge to children then they should.

As I said before my club is a 'fighting' club, we have fun certainly, in the adults class too but we are primarily an MMA club. As I said we don't teach discipline as a primary subject though I guess it comes anyway. We teach fighting, I know a great many karate clubs that also do this, they aren't warm and fluffy places even for the kids who incidentally love it.

 

[wck dallas]

I am not disrespecting other styles. All I'm saying is alot of MA would be great for kids...especially how they are tought in MOST schools here in America. But not wing chun for reasons stated above.

I'm not speaking out of ignorance...growing up I took several MA from several schools... these were form / point sparring schools. Learn the kata...get a slap on the back and a new color to wear .... perhaps a trophy. most of these schools are more concerned with pleasing the soccer mom who is paying for it.

It's not the style...it's the american suburbia mentality. NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE THIS WAY....but if I had to guess I would say at least 90% are this way. I am speaking of kids classes here...not adult classes in the same school.

Originaly, when I started wing chun I wanted my 7 yr old daughter to take it as well....of course I had no idea the level of violence associated with WC at the time. So I went on a search to put her in a different style.
I found nothing worth spending my money on....as far as learning a true art. self defense...yes, discipline etc. yes. learning a true MA ...no.

most of these schools had Karate on the big sign...but did'nt even teach Karate, rather they taught TKD or something else. there's nothing wrong with TKD.....But why the Karate signs ??????? It just plays into the mentality I'm speaking of.

anyway...I'm on a rant... but I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

 

[brocklee]

I am not disrespecting other styles. All I'm saying is alot of MA would be great for kids...especially how they are tought in MOST schools here in America. But not wing chun for reasons stated above.

I'm not speaking out of ignorance...growing up I took several MA from several schools... these were form / point sparring schools. Learn the kata...get a slap on the back and a new color to wear .... perhaps a trophy. most of these schools are more concerned with pleasing the soccer mom who is paying for it.

It's not the style...it's the american suburbia mentality. NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE THIS WAY....but if I had to guess I would say at least 90% are this way. I am speaking of kids classes here...not adult classes in the same school.

Originaly, when I started wing chun I wanted my 7 yr old daughter to take it as well....of course I had no idea the level of violence associated with WC at the time. So I went on a search to put her in a different style.
I found nothing worth spending my money on....as far as learning a true art. self defense...yes, discipline etc. yes. learning a true MA ...no.

most of these schools had Karate on the big sign...but did'nt even teach Karate, rather they taught TKD or something else. there's nothing wrong with TKD.....But why the Karate signs ??????? It just plays into the mentality I'm speaking of.

anyway...I'm on a rant... but I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

Great post, nothing disrespectful about it.

 

[Tez3]

I am not disrespecting other styles. All I'm saying is alot of MA would be great for kids...especially how they are tought in MOST schools here in America. But not wing chun for reasons stated above.

I'm not speaking out of ignorance...growing up I took several MA from several schools... these were form / point sparring schools. Learn the kata...get a slap on the back and a new color to wear .... perhaps a trophy. most of these schools are more concerned with pleasing the soccer mom who is paying for it.

It's not the style...it's the american suburbia mentality. NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE THIS WAY....but if I had to guess I would say at least 90% are this way. I am speaking of kids classes here...not adult classes in the same school.

Originaly, when I started wing chun I wanted my 7 yr old daughter to take it as well....of course I had no idea the level of violence associated with WC at the time. So I went on a search to put her in a different style.
I found nothing worth spending my money on....as far as learning a true art. self defense...yes, discipline etc. yes. learning a true MA ...no.

most of these schools had Karate on the big sign...but did'nt even teach Karate, rather they taught TKD or something else. there's nothing wrong with TKD.....But why the Karate signs ??????? It just plays into the mentality I'm speaking of.

anyway...I'm on a rant... but I'm not trying to be disrespectful.

LOL at on a rant! We all do that don't worry!

 

[wck dallas]

k

 

[Tanizaki]

You should learn more about WC before directing people to teach it to children....it isn't know as the deadliest kung fu for no reason (i know, double negatives) hehe

To whom is it known as the deadliest kung fu?

 

[Tanizaki]

I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".

With all respect to your instructor, that comment is a little goofy. If he really feared that liability, he would also extend it to the adults that he taught.
I assume he'd prefer a call from the office than a visit from the local authorities. I don't know the law where you live, but I find it improbable that he would be subject to any civil liability.

 

[brocklee]

To whom is it known as the deadliest kung fu?

No biggy, just pretend I never said it Not getting sucked into THIS again