Could be I'm old and been at this too long

[grydth]

Am I missing something, have I been at MA to long, am I a dinosaur or is it just that I have trained Traditional Chinese Martial Arts to long.

I see a lot of posts about how many times you go to class or how often does your teacher work on that in class or I’m to lazy to get to class to train.

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.

You need to look inside of yourself instead of placing too much importance on what you see on the internet. This background noise will always be present, one has to tune it out.

We have both seen Tai Chi masters flow like water, even into their 80's. I watch the 6th dan at my daughters' goju ryu dojo consistently beat young tough kids off the mark - he is in his 50's. At a seminar three of us attended last week, I was hit 4 times solidly by the teacher and dropped to the ground. My friends could hear the thuds in the back of the room and were wondering what ER to take me to.....but such was his superb skill and control that I was up instantly, unhurt. He had to have been in his late 60's.

One of the bad things about the USA is the general disrespect for age... such is not the case in other places I have visited and lived in. This thought that we become 'oldies' is the result of years of corporate advertising. But the rest of the world knows better in this instance. One can become much wiser while getting older. Part of that wisdom is knowing that most MA practice is done outside of class - that way the teacher can focus on correction, refinement and new material in class.

 

[geezer]

Xue, I often don't train enough when I'm away from my group. I guess I just get lazy about doing forms over and over... especially forms in which I don't have a deep understanding of the applications. I get the feeling that what I'm doing is unproductive. I'm much more motivated to do paired drills, sparring and chi-sau... especially with someone better. Somehow when I'm getting smacked around a bit, I feel like I'm really learning something ...LOL.

How about you? Your knee permitting, wouldn't you rather be doing push-hands with your instructor and really feeling if you've got it right, as compared to endless reps of forms? ...On the other hand, I admit that in CMA the forms actually cause our bodies to change and develop in ways that enable us to peform our skills when matched with a partner or opponent. So there's no way around it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You need to look inside of yourself instead of placing too much importance on what you see on the internet. This background noise will always be present, one has to tune it out.

It is not just the internet though, it is in taiji class, it was in Xingyiquan class, and it was in my old Sifu’s school. I see it in schools I visit form time to time, it is people I talk to off of MT. And it is of course on MT.

We have both seen Tai Chi masters flow like water, even into their 80's. I watch the 6th dan at my daughters' goju ryu dojo consistently beat young tough kids off the mark - he is in his 50's. At a seminar three of us attended last week, I was hit 4 times solidly by the teacher and dropped to the ground. My friends could hear the thuds in the back of the room and were wondering what ER to take me to.....but such was his superb skill and control that I was up instantly, unhurt. He had to have been in his late 60's.

Yup, been there, done that, actually took a mental note of where the nearest ER was… and it was INCREDIBLY cool

One of the bad things about the USA is the general disrespect for age... such is not the case in other places I have visited and lived in. This thought that we become 'oldies' is the result of years of corporate advertising. But the rest of the world knows better in this instance. One can become much wiser while getting older. Part of that wisdom is knowing that most MA practice is done outside of class - that way the teacher can focus on correction, refinement and new material in class.

It is that correction (refinement) that is most of my issue. A teacher can never get to that if he/she must continually correct the same things from the same people class after class after class. I will admit, back when I taught, I came seriously close to talking to two of my students and asking them why they bothered to come at all since they were obviously not working on anything outside of class and one of them was not listening much in class either. Bit I stopped teaching and went to train with my Sifu before I lost the restraint.

Xue, I often don't train enough when I'm away from my group. I guess I just get lazy about doing forms over and over... especially forms in which I don't have a deep understanding of the applications. I get the feeling that what I'm doing is unproductive. I'm much more motivated to do paired drills, sparring and chi-sau... especially with someone better. Somehow when I'm getting smacked around a bit, I feel like I'm really learning something ...LOL.

How about you? Your knee permitting, wouldn't you rather be doing push-hands with your instructor and really feeling if you've got it right, as compared to endless reps of forms? ...On the other hand, I admit that in CMA the forms actually cause our bodies to change and develop in ways that enable us to peform our skills when matched with a partner or opponent. So there's no way around it.

We all get lazy from time to time, but could you do sil lum tao, at home, on your own, without correction form your Sifu and be fairly certain it is correct. Or do you have to constantly go back to your Sifu and ask the same questions about sill um tao over and over again because the only time you do (Or did) sill um tao was in class? And I think I already know the answer to that one geezer, I have no doubt you are competent at Sil lum Tao.

And Hell yeah I would much rather to tuishou than forms but here is the kicker. Without someone training the forms they will never do proper tuishou and to get proficient at tuishou you need multiple partners to work with and if you are constantly teaching every single person you do tuishou with it gets on your nerves. And doing tuishou with my Sifu is absolutely incredible and I learn a lot but when I go to work with someone else I end up right back teaching them again and they have absolutely no interest what-so-ever of doing any tuishou outside of class.

 

[Balrog]

Most of your time training on any thing in TCMA is by yourself you should not need to see your teacher everyday to work on basics, you should do those on your own. And if you can see your teacher everyday that is great but if you can’t you really should be working on what he/she has shown you outside of class as often as possible.

I sort of agree with that.

Beginners do need the daily contact. But as they get higher in rank, they start to understand the complexities and the roles then shift from teacher/student to mentor/disciple. The students have a firm grasp of basics and concepts, so now the instructor doesn't have to teach them new things as much. They can show the students something new a couple of times and then say, "Now you try it". And the students will then go work on it, learn it, internalize it and present it back to the teacher, who then will make some fine-tuning adjustments.

M. A. training, in a way, is a lot like the old apprenticeship system. Let's say you were a woodcrafter. People liked your stuff and you got a lot of orders. You might take on an apprentice to help. They would start out doing the scutwork, like sweeping the shop and carrying things; the real basics. You would then teach them how to sharpen and maintain the tools and how to read the grains of the various woods; advanced stuff, but still basics. You would then eventually teach them techniques, then let them experiment with simple carvings; again, more advanced basics.

As their skill grew, you might take on a new commission, then tell them what you wanted and let them do the majority of the work with you occasionally looking over their shoulder. At this point, they would be considered a journeyman. This would be similar, in a way, to their testing for Black Belt - they gotta show it all to the judges and it's got to be good. But they continue to learn and grow and advance in their craft.

Eventually, they would begin to work on one special piece which would really show their skills and when that piece was finished, they would be acknowledged as a master craftsman (it was their masterpiece, which is where the term comes from). And this is similar to training and testings in the advanced degrees of Black Belt until you are acknowledged as a Master Instructor.