Knowing When to Say "When"...

[Golden Crane]

Question for those who have left an art, school or instructor and moved on: How did you know it was time to call it a day, pack your (physical or emotional) stuff and get the heck out of Dodge?

Been training now for five years with my current sensei, but I've been feeling for a minute now that we may be coming to the end of our road together. He introduced me to the art - and for that I'm most grateful - but it just feels like we've gotten to a point where some decisions have to be made - and I'm really struggling with whether to stay or go. Just looking for some insight, I guess...

Domo arigato :asian:

 

[stephen]

Question for those who have left an art, school or instructor and moved on: How did you know it was time to call it a day, pack your (physical or emotional) stuff and get the heck out of Dodge

Probably when you're asking this question. Sounds like you already know the answer.

 

[Ken Morgan]

My sensei encourages us to train elsewhere, in as many places and with as many people as possible. Perhaps its time for you to see what else is out there?

 

[MJS]

Question for those who have left an art, school or instructor and moved on: How did you know it was time to call it a day, pack your (physical or emotional) stuff and get the heck out of Dodge?

Been training now for five years with my current sensei, but I've been feeling for a minute now that we may be coming to the end of our road together. He introduced me to the art - and for that I'm most grateful - but it just feels like we've gotten to a point where some decisions have to be made - and I'm really struggling with whether to stay or go. Just looking for some insight, I guess...

Domo arigato :asian:

Sounds like you're having some issues at your school. If you dont mind saying, what are the problems that you're having? If you'd rather not say, thats fine.

Have you thought about talking to your inst.? If you have already, and things still dont seem to be going good, then perhaps its time to call it quits there and find a school that fits your needs.

 

[seasoned]

Question for those who have left an art, school or instructor and moved on: How did you know it was time to call it a day, pack your (physical or emotional) stuff and get the heck out of Dodge?

Been training now for five years with my current sensei, but I've been feeling for a minute now that we may be coming to the end of our road together. He introduced me to the art - and for that I'm most grateful - but it just feels like we've gotten to a point where some decisions have to be made - and I'm really struggling with whether to stay or go. Just looking for some insight, I guess...

Domo arigato :asian:

It depends on what the issues are. Do you feel that there is no more to learn there? Perhaps it is more personal with the instructor. Over my years of training I have had these same feeling, but with a sit down with them, we were able to resolve things with no bad feelings. More info would help.

 

[Blade96]

Question for those who have left an art, school or instructor and moved on: How did you know it was time to call it a day, pack your (physical or emotional) stuff and get the heck out of Dodge?

When i knew I loved shotokan and did not love Kenpo.

I liked Kenpo, but I did not fall in love with it. i did not love it.

so having crosstrained a little while in both, that's when i knew it was time to leave the Kenpo dojo. when i knew i had chosen my MA.

 

[grydth]

Can't tell you whether to stay or go.... that has to be your call.

But I can say that you shouldn't leave angry or burn your bridges. Nothing good could come of that. In fact, if you depart on good terms, you may find yourself returning in the future.

There is a place I return to several times a year..... just to refine technique/pick up a couple new things/catch any bad habits that may have crept in.

 

[Golden Crane]

For MJS and Seasoned: the issues are kinda two-fold. Basically, the learning has stopped (which has made me already go additionally to a different school of the same style for instruction); also my sensei and I are having some philosophical differences that I'm uncomfortable with, especially when it comes to teaching self-defense techniques and kihon. I've talked to him about it, but he's just not very receptive at all. I'm not approaching it in a "suddenly I KNOW everything" sort of way either as I do know my place; his school, his rules, after all…

I'm a relatively new shodan (graded in May 09) and there haven't been any other black belts between my sensei, myself and the two other dojo mates I graded for shodan with in quite some time. I now have three training partners who I've worked with for a little over four years now who may be grading for shodan this May. Really, the only reason I haven't left totally is because of them. So the plan right now is to hang on until May to help them as best I can. Honestly, I'm not even sure I can make it until then...

The whole situation makes me really sad. I was introduced to MA by this sensei, I enjoy going to a dojo in my community and working with students both young and old(er ) there, but I'm not being fed, y'know? Where I used to look forward to class, I'm now feeling frustrated and upset, which isn't good. It doesn't help that my sensei - who knows his three black belts are going elsewhere to train (we got his permission first) - takes little pokes at the other school's instructor (his dojo brother who he came through the ranks with, if you can believe that) every now and again. Sigh. All I want to do is train, y'know?

No bridges will be burned, for certain. Not my style at all...

 

[harlan]

It's your call, really. Sounds like 'black belt depression.' One gets to a certain point in training, and it changes. It's not the 'linear to XX belt', the clearly defined 'top-down' training anymore, and the reason why many BB quit because they can't find the answer to 'what now'?

You go out, and you explore, and train on your own. At some point, you get to 'move up' and train alongside your sensei and they may very well resist your ideas. If it's not personality differences, the question you should ask is whether or not you want to commit to this particular sensei.

I'm of the opinion that BB's that quit are essentially 'robbing' the dojo of a needed layer; it's not just sensei, a dojo needs a core of senior students that continue to learn and reinvest in the group.

 

[dbell]

I'm of the opinion that BB's that quit are essentially 'robbing' the dojo of a needed layer; it's not just sensei, a dojo needs a core of senior students that continue to learn and reinvest in the group.

While I agree that a BB that quits is "robbing" the dojo of a needed layer, IF that BB is not being challenged to learn more and growing as well, maybe not in belts, but knowledge, the dojo is robbing them of that growth.

Many school owners I have seen over the last 40 years don't know how to teach black belts beyond the forms and moves, and can't take them to the next levels. In these cases, the BB may need to move on, but would hopefully come by the "original" dojo weekly to help in the training and provide that continuity of training from the school owner. I would hope that the BB that is "moving on" will find someone in their style that can teach them the next levels of the art (and I don't mean style, kata, forms, whatever, but the "teaching of the art" and the ability to grow in the art based on what they know, as some owners can't teach that part of the art themselves, while they may live it that way, they don't know how to show it to others...) (Make sense?)

In some cases, once a person gets to the level of knowing the art (has all the techniques, katas, moves, etc.) they may also need to start learning a new art while maintaining their training and teaching of the first art...

Golden Crane,

That said, most arts I have looked at or trained at, Shodan is not the end of the learning of technique.. That typically comes at 3rd or 4th Dan, depending on the system... If you have hit a block in learning at 1st Dan, there are some concerns I have with that school... Although I don't know what style you are training in?

 

[Golden Crane]

I'm of the opinion that BB's that quit are essentially 'robbing' the dojo of a needed layer; it's not just sensei, a dojo needs a core of senior students that continue to learn and reinvest in the group.

And I totally hear that and agree. Hence the juxtaposition and the questions.

 

[Golden Crane]

Mr. Bell, I'm training in USA Goju. I know shodan is really just the beginning, but it really feels like the end where I'm training. Class is offered two days a week, but I only go to one session and train two additional days at the sister dojo where the learning continues and the challenges - both physical and mental - abound.

But this shouldn't just be about me. I do have an obligation to give back the same way seniors gave back to me, hence the dilemma. The other two shodans and I began traveling elsewhere to supplement when we realized the learning had stopped - which has helped - but I still feel like I'm stagnating. The rules at the home dojo keep changing - like for our curriculum self-defense techniques, which is confusing to the underbelts. Many of the women have difficulty muscling through some of them - which makes them (the techniques) totally ineffective, but when I ask permission to suggest ways to make getting from A to B more effective/smoother for them, I get shot down. He only wants it taught a certain way, but that way is giving people fits. So staying and teaching it that way feels like I'm contributing by default.

But I've been teaching it his way (his dojo, his rules) then showing what works for this particular tall, thin woman as an aside. I feel like I'm being dishonest to Sensei, but leaving the latter part out feels like I'm being dishonest to my training partners. This balancing act is killing me spiritually and I'm feeling like I'm being dishonest to my art as a result.

Sigh. I just want to train...

 

[Flying Crane]

Question for those who have left an art, school or instructor and moved on: How did you know it was time to call it a day, pack your (physical or emotional) stuff and get the heck out of Dodge?

In one case, I knew it was time to go when he started screaming at the voices in his head.

 

[jks9199]

What rank is your instructor? Has he simply reached the limit of his knowledge since starting the school? Or could it be that you need some time for the knowledge to settle and fully assimilate? Or that your personal need as a student is to learn to teach and to study the techniques from that perspective?

I can't make your decision -- but it's not at all uncommon for someone on reaching first degree black belt to be surprised that there's not something new and exciting to learn. The simple fact is that, in many styles, most of the "new" stuff has been taught by black belt; the "new" material is often refinements and subtleties that don't come quickly or even obviously sometimes. (I've got a student that I've been pushing to start teaching because that's what he needs... but if it's not handed to him, he's not going to do it.)

Have a talk with your instructor. See what he thinks your needs are. Or transition to the sister school full time. But don't be surprised if there's no magic answer available.

 

[KELLYG]

I also think that the "black belt blues" have kicked in some as well. At colored belt level you were spoon fed each bit on knowledge until you have accumulated the Black belt base. At black belt that changes some. You at that level need to be guided internally (for the most part) and externally to bring your skill to a higher level. Since there by your description, are no other black belt students, then maybe he has not developed or implemented a plan that incorporates your particular learning needs. I think that a conversation with the Master is very important at this stage. He may not know that you are dissatisfied, if he does not know then he can not fix it. If he is aware and still has nothing to offer you in the way of bringing you skill to a higher level then it may be time to go down the road, because in one way or another you are paying him for a service that he may not be able to provide. Another question I would ask if weather or not I was ready to have my skills pushed forward.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Probably when you're asking this question. Sounds like you already know the answer.

+1. The fact that you are asking yourself this question means that you have already recognized it is time to move on.

 

[harlan]

Nice related blog on the topic:

http://shinseidokandojo.blogspot.com/2010/02/jonokuchi-this-is-only-begining.html

 

[Golden Crane]

In one case, I knew it was time to go when he started screaming at the voices in his head.

LOL, Flying Crane...

I guess I should clarify: when I say “no learning” I truly mean that. My black belt dojo mates and I teach from the time we walk in the dojo until we bow out at the end of class (and usually afterwards, working on stuff with the brown belts) with the exception of the group warmup Sensei leads. I have no problem with teaching, but my ability to re-invest in the group will eventually be limited because of the knowledge I don’t have yet, feel me?

My sensei is a 6th dan who has been training for almost 40 years. He’s guided black belts through the ranks before, but only a few of them actively train now (and they rarely train with us). When I first started, there was a 3rd dan who trained with us on a regular (he began with Sensei as well). He always worked with the newbies, but he hasn’t been around consistently in almost three years. Come to think of it, I ONLY saw him teach; ironically, every kata I learned from about 6th to 3rd kyu, I actually learned from him. So perhaps you are right, JKS; my instructor may be at the limit of his teaching knowledge - but I think he’s just really, really out of practice “feeding” his yudansha.

And while I’m not expecting anything new or any magic or hidden techniques in the learning, SOMETHING would be nice – even if it’s refining/tightening the basics. About a month ago, Sensei pulled the three of us aside and went over kata Seisan (which we’d been introduced to via the sister dojo) for about 10 minutes. The last time we got instruction like that from him was at 2nd kyu when we were introduced to the bo and our first bo kata. That, unfortunately, was two years ago. Not sure what to say about that…

I’ve talked with him before but he makes me feel like I’m somehow overstepping my boundaries, which may be part of the problem. The comfort level is a bit off which makes detailing all this to him difficult because I’m sure he’ll take it as disrespect. But I have to try again (should it be this hard, though?!?) or I think I eventually might stop training with him all together, which would really be a shame. Thanks for that reminder JKS & KellyG...

Interesting blog post, Harlan. My new word for the day is "Jonokuchi" . The idea behind working to/training through yudansha was explained to me pretty much the same way…

 

[harlan]

Now that you've explained the situation in more detail, it is clear it isn't good. Doesn't matter the rank, everyone needs 'hand's on' time. If sensei isn't training alongside you, then I would have expected that at least you were training with 3rd dans and up (who in turn train actively with sensei). I completely understand a 6th dan with 30 years not wanting to train with 'beginners', but if he HAS got the goods to pass along, he's no one to blame but himself for not bringing shodans along further, and dead-ending his dojo.

 

[MattJ]

I think it's normal for most people to come to an end with one art after a while. People reach technical "saturation points", where they may no longer be able to absorb any more from their current style. People reach philosophical differences with the instruction style. Injury or other physical limitations may prompt a change.


I agree with the earlier poster that mentioned at the time one is asking these questions, it's probably already time to move on.

Good luck!