What's a good technique?

[Gerry Seymour]

When you know exactly what will be coming at you, that is an artificial situation and of course you can make it work. You could make the most unrealistic technique work, with that foreknowledge.

Yes. Even some of the NGA techniques I label "esoteric" (shorthand for principle training, not an actual technique with direct application) can easily be used in this kind of situation. In fact, that's exactly how they ARE used in training.

 

[Buka]

Unless someone has had good previous training, "timing" is not something anyone has on day one.

If you have someone that automatically has timing you've got yourself a unicorn. And superior timing will beat superior speed every day.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Unless someone has had good previous training, "timing" is not something anyone has on day one.

If you have someone that automatically has timing you've got yourself a unicorn. And superior timing will beat superior speed every day.

Superior timing looks like superior speed to the one that has worse timing. And you basically are just smashing your head against the wall trying to out-speed them until you realize it's a timing issue.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Straight punching seems to fall into the critieria. its one the simplest things to learn, unless you are part of the untrainable block and need more of a rehab program anyway.

Personally speaking, id look to works the best in general, gives you the most options in the most situations and has a high percentage of working in those situations. (on a scale obviously, should be high 90% if you you expect that situation to be high 90% likely, so fourth down the list)

Which i think punching in general fills my criteria. (among other things)

Now if you want to suprise someone doing TKD, the art of making and throwing a moltov seems like it would do the trick, they'll never see it coming. Barebones and simple.

 

[Budo1974]

A good technique is a technique that should work with high percentage. As long as your speed and timing are there, even if your "ability" is not there yet, that technique should still work for you. After a teacher teaches that technique to a new student, if the new student uses it in sparring against his teacher, it should work on that teacher.

There are not that many techniques that can fall into this category. A single leg, head lock, hip throw, ... used by a beginner to against his teacher may be hard to work until the student has developed "ability".

But to use a

- circular punch to deflect a straight punch.
- straight punch to deflect a circular punch.

can work easily for the beginners even on day 1.

Do you know any technique that may fall into this category?

Techniques are only as good as the fundamental skill of the practitioner. If a martial artist has good fundamental skills, his technique may be effective, if he/she has poor fundamental skills, then even a “great technique” will be ineffective.

People often misunderstand martial arts training as the learning of techniques, however it is the fundamental skills underlying those techniques that is at the true root of training. These fundamental skills include: timing, alignment, centerline power, focused power, balance, fitness, etc.

As far as the actual strategy of a technique that is effective against a specific attack or situation, that is so hard to say as the variables are infinite including the size, ability, training of the opponent; the situation (sport, drunk uncle, police enforcement, schoolyard fight, self defense). What may be a good technique in one situation would be a poor technique in another situation. It is much easier to define “good techniques” in the aspects of sports like MMA, Judo, Boxing, etc, because there are a defined set of rules, desired outcomes, etc.

Even in the sport world, one small rule change can alter the effectiveness of a particular technique. For example the introduction of time limits and judges made many submission techniques much less valuable and striking techniques much more valuable.

In law enforcement and jobs like being a bouncer, there are stand up grappling techniques that are very effective that would never work in mma.

Unless you have a specific scenario that you are training for, the focus of your training should be more on fundamental skills and principles that each technique teaches.

 

[Gyakuto]

A good technique is a technique that should work with high percentage.

You will never know this because you cannot apply your technique, unbridled, to find out!

 

[Guardian]

A good technique is a technique that should work with high percentage. As long as your speed and timing are there, even if your "ability" is not there yet, that technique should still work for you. After a teacher teaches that technique to a new student, if the new student uses it in sparring against his teacher, it should work on that teacher.

There are not that many techniques that can fall into this category. A single leg, head lock, hip throw, ... used by a beginner to against his teacher may be hard to work until the student has developed "ability".

But to use a

- circular punch to deflect a straight punch.
- straight punch to deflect a circular punch.

can work easily for the beginners even on day 1.

Do you know any technique that may fall into this category?

Front snap kick?

 

[Alan0354]

If there is any move that is effective from day one, I would love to learn it. I also have some snake oil the sell that can cure all too!!!

Even a simple punch or a front kick take a long time to get good at. Like a punch is not just a punch in the eye of the novice. Takes time to coordinate the foot, the hip, the waist and the shoulder to add to the punch to generate the force. Don't even talk about timing and speed and all that, just try to punch a heavy bag and dent it in 1" to 2" without pushing the bag and make it swing all over the place will take a while to get that. ( penetration without pushing). Same as the simple front kick, so many people ending up pushing rather than kicking they even have a name called "front push kick". That does not drop the opponent, just push them back and they can come right back.

Takes a while to get good, or else it's pretty much useless even if you land one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If there is any move that is effective from day one, I would love to learn it. I also have some snake oil the sell that can cure all too!!!

How about this one?

 

[Alan0354]

How about this one?

If the opponent is willing to stand there and let me do it, it will work!!! Make sure he hold still though. If the opponent just stand there, I would poke his eyes, that would work too!!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If the opponent is willing to stand there and let me do it, it will work!!! Make sure he hold still though.

When you push on your opponent's chest, if your opponent has no MA training, do you think he will try to break your finger?

MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock, to use the strong part of your body to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body. As long as a technique can meet that requirement, it's a good technique.

 

[Alan0354]

When you push on your opponent's chest, if your opponent has no MA training, do you think he will try to break your finger?

MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock, to use the strong part of your body to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body. As long as a technique can meet that requirement, it's a good technique.

It's not the question whether it's a good technique, but most likely it's not going to work for beginners from day one. It takes constant practice and become a reflex. You talk as if it's so easy, that you learn it and you can apply on day one.

To me, unless you have people practicing with you over and over, actually sparring with it, I would not be so confident saying that this is good. This is all action, not for talking.

If I were to teach people, I start with the most most basic things, concentrating on body conditioning and strength training to build a solid foundation instead of giving people a false hope of being able to defend themselves from an attacker from day one.



Hell, if I want to attack you, I would not push you, I would punch as the first move. If I were to push you, I would push hard and pull back my hands. It would not be like your "ideal" push and leave my hand on your chest for you to grab. Try grabbing my hands if I really push you!!! It's the reflex, the speed........through extend period of time of training. This is NOT for talking on paper whether this is a good move or not. It would be so much natural and faster if someone push me, I turn my body to deflect the push and punch right back. I would NEVER even think about trying to grab his hand and bend it over. That's stupid.

You should know all these, you are supposed to be an instructor which I am not. I never claim to be an expert, just been in it for a few years.

 

[Diagen]

Everyone can become specialist monsters but a direct side kick that is trained well will always be incredibly useful for creating distance, causing damage, staying outside of opponent's reach, and knocking them off balance or to the ground. I don't know what you mean by ability. If you develop it, do it quick and hard, and train your lower body and core, then you can destroy someone with it. Wherever their arms are doesn't matter, just aim for the center of mass and knock them to the ground in agony. If you don't have a strong lower body don't bother though it's not a perfect technique just perfect if you invest a lot into it. No perfect technique around. A kick has many advantages hence why I mention it. Even when close if your lower body is trained you can kick off their body from close range and gain distance.

 

[Diagen]

When you push on your opponent's chest, if your opponent has no MA training, do you think he will try to break your finger?

MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock, to use the strong part of your body to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body. As long as a technique can meet that requirement, it's a good technique.

MA training is not for fumbling around though. One powerful move is essential, as you can break their 'strength' and any part of their body will be broken or heavily damaged.

 

[isshinryuronin]

they even have a name called "front push kick". That does not drop the opponent, just push them back and they can come right back.

You misunderstand the nature and execution of this kick - the word "push" should rather be replaced by "thrust." This would signify hip generated extension and power. This can be executed as a front kick with the ball of the foot. Using the hips correctly, it can be delivered with some force. Joe Lewis broke many a rib with his side thrust kick, and few "came right back."

Okinawan karate also has a front heel thrust kick and can be seen in some kata. This does not "just push them back," as it's often used after taking hold of the opponent's arms. As the target is immobilized, it absorbs the full impact of the deeply penetrating kick.

You are on track, though, regarding your comments on the unlikeliness of a raw beginner being able to effectively executing a technique.

 

[isshinryuronin]

if your lower body is trained you can kick off their body from close range and gain distance.

Consider this question - Why would you want to gain distance? A lot of skill and perhaps risk is entailed in closing the distance to get close for striking. If you're already close, you're right where you want to be. Just hit him!

 

[Diagen]

Consider this question - Why would you want to gain distance? A lot of skill and perhaps risk is entailed in closing the distance to get close for striking. If you're already close, you're right where you want to be. Just hit him!

There are many reasons why you would want to create distance. Multiple opponents. Bladed weapon. Going up against a strong grappler or puncher. They can easily hit you back or dodge/ deflect and counter. The kick is a good move to invest into, and the thread is about what's a good technique. To illustrate: you step in, side kick, and they're slightly off balance because you stepped in and put your weight into it. You're good at it so you get in closer and kick at a different angle aiming for a vital rather than their chest. You hit their vital. They are in agony. You win.
You should try specializing for the next 4 months and see what I mean. Lower body for an hour every day and another hour of hard hits to the bag or the air. If you have a balance board then do kicks on it. Do a kick then quickly change direction (octagon, 8 directions; turning left or right going in that direction. 16 variations.) Remember to hit hard but practice a quick retraction. Hip flexors and such huge here. Bet you can drop any spar partner; just have to learn how to deal with other kicks which means checking their kick and having a quick second kick to capitalize on it if you want a simple progression. If you're quick you will move second and hit first so no need to check their kick. If you're tough you will move first hit second and they will be knocked down and you'll be fine.

 

[Alan0354]

You misunderstand the nature and execution of this kick - the word "push" should rather be replaced by "thrust." This would signify hip generated extension and power. This can be executed as a front kick with the ball of the foot. Using the hips correctly, it can be delivered with some force. Joe Lewis broke many a rib with his side thrust kick, and few "came right back."

Okinawan karate also has a front heel thrust kick and can be seen in some kata. This does not "just push them back," as it's often used after taking hold of the opponent's arms. As the target is immobilized, it absorbs the full impact of the deeply penetrating kick.

You are on track, though, regarding your comments on the unlikeliness of a raw beginner being able to effectively executing a technique.

I rather kick with the ball of the feet with the motion of the knee instead of pushing. I try to kick so the ball of the feet dig a few inches into the kicking bag rather than pushing it. Like punching, a good punch dig into the bag and make a loud noise, but the bag doesn't swing back that hard. I concentrate on penetrating rather than pushing. That's just me. It is hard to get a lot of penetration with front kick and that is what I am practicing.

Side kick is a little bit of pushing.....BUT huge difference. The pivot of the hip at the last moment of the side kick really help digging the heel into the heavy bag( body of the opponent) on top of pushing.

I used to loved sidekick, sadly, I practice so hard I injured my back mainly from practicing side kick. It's the twisting of the hip in the pivot that finally hurt my back. I had to quit Tae Kwon Do some 30 years ago. I still keep practicing punching and front kicks at home, I have two kicking bags hanging in the garage for practicing. I don't dare to do high round kick, only round kick to the leg(low). Too bad.

 

[Diagen]

I rather kick with the ball of the feet with the motion of the knee instead of pushing. I try to kick so the ball of the feet dig a few inches into the kicking bag rather than pushing it. Like punching, a good punch dig into the bag and make a loud noise, but the bag doesn't swing back that hard. I concentrate on penetrating rather than pushing. That's just me. It is hard to get a lot of penetration with front kick and that is what I am practicing.

Side kick is a little bit of pushing.....BUT huge difference. The pivot of the hip at the last moment of the side kick really help digging the heel into the heavy bag( body of the opponent) on top of pushing.

I used to loved sidekick, sadly, I practice so hard I injured my back mainly from practicing side kick. It's the twisting of the hip in the pivot that finally hurt my back. I had to quit Tae Kwon Do some 30 years ago. I still keep practicing punching and front kicks at home, I have two kicking bags hanging in the garage for practicing. I don't dare to do high round kick, only round kick to the leg(low). Too bad.

lol if you hurt from executing a side kick it is temporary. Stretch, rub your back, do back and oblique exercises, go back at it man. If you post physique (body) I can see the weakness in development and give you training tips. Small strains and sprains are par for the course; it merely signals lack of physical development but developing physically involves small strains and sprains so there's no avoiding it. Usually just tenderness, bruising and soreness when people talk about hurting themselves. Even if it's sudden and painful you can usually walk it off. That's just how the body and it's zealous signalling works man.

 

[Buka]

Techniques are only as good as the fundamental skill of the practitioner. If a martial artist has good fundamental skills, his technique may be effective, if he/she has poor fundamental skills, then even a “great technique” will be ineffective.

People often misunderstand martial arts training as the learning of techniques, however it is the fundamental skills underlying those techniques that is at the true root of training. These fundamental skills include: timing, alignment, centerline power, focused power, balance, fitness, etc.

As far as the actual strategy of a technique that is effective against a specific attack or situation, that is so hard to say as the variables are infinite including the size, ability, training of the opponent; the situation (sport, drunk uncle, police enforcement, schoolyard fight, self defense). What may be a good technique in one situation would be a poor technique in another situation. It is much easier to define “good techniques” in the aspects of sports like MMA, Judo, Boxing, etc, because there are a defined set of rules, desired outcomes, etc.

Even in the sport world, one small rule change can alter the effectiveness of a particular technique. For example the introduction of time limits and judges made many submission techniques much less valuable and striking techniques much more valuable.

In law enforcement and jobs like being a bouncer, there are stand up grappling techniques that are very effective that would never work in mma.

Unless you have a specific scenario that you are training for, the focus of your training should be more on fundamental skills and principles that each technique teaches.

Welcome to MartialTalk, Budo1974.

 

[drop bear]

I rather kick with the ball of the feet with the motion of the knee instead of pushing. I try to kick so the ball of the feet dig a few inches into the kicking bag rather than pushing it. Like punching, a good punch dig into the bag and make a loud noise, but the bag doesn't swing back that hard. I concentrate on penetrating rather than pushing. That's just me. It is hard to get a lot of penetration with front kick and that is what I am practicing.

Side kick is a little bit of pushing.....BUT huge difference. The pivot of the hip at the last moment of the side kick really help digging the heel into the heavy bag( body of the opponent) on top of pushing.

I used to loved sidekick, sadly, I practice so hard I injured my back mainly from practicing side kick. It's the twisting of the hip in the pivot that finally hurt my back. I had to quit Tae Kwon Do some 30 years ago. I still keep practicing punching and front kicks at home, I have two kicking bags hanging in the garage for practicing. I don't dare to do high round kick, only round kick to the leg(low). Too bad.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1169344979768117

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you push on your opponent's chest, if your opponent has no MA training, do you think he will try to break your finger?

MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock, to use the strong part of your body to deal with the weak part of your opponent's body. As long as a technique can meet that requirement, it's a good technique.

That's a different standard than you posited at the beginning of the thread.

 

[Flying Crane]

You misunderstand the nature and execution of this kick - the word "push" should rather be replaced by "thrust." This would signify hip generated extension and power. This can be executed as a front kick with the ball of the foot. Using the hips correctly, it can be delivered with some force. Joe Lewis broke many a rib with his side thrust kick, and few "came right back."

Okinawan karate also has a front heel thrust kick and can be seen in some kata. This does not "just push them back," as it's often used after taking hold of the opponent's arms. As the target is immobilized, it absorbs the full impact of the deeply penetrating kick.

You are on track, though, regarding your comments on the unlikeliness of a raw beginner being able to effectively executing a technique.

That heel-thrust front kick is seen in a lot of Chinese methods too. It’s a favorite of mine.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's a different standard than you posited at the beginning of the thread.

A person without MA training won't know how to take advantage on his opponent's move. After he knows how to do it, to break someone's finger is that that hard.

Information is the key. If you have the right key, to open the right lock takes no effort.