come on people

[dosandojang]

And I was one of Norris's original students in the 70's. I was at his Sherman Oaks Karate School in So Cal. He always told us we were doing American Tang Soo Do, but that our roots were in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do....

 

[dosandojang]

Well I just follow the roots. Ask Ondrej from warriorscholar, he will tell you the same thing. Like I said, I mentioned China. Backwards, TSD, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Shao Lin Kung Fu. Brief, but for the most part true, to the best of what history offers us....

 

[dosandojang]

Ondrej, another question for ya. I made this statement in a brief way. TSD comes from Shotokan (with Chinese influence as well, since Hwang Kee says he learned some in China, and the rest from Okinawan Books while in Japan), which comes from Shorin Ryu, which comes from Shao Lin Kung Fu. Is this pretty accurate? Brief I know, but correct?

Also, since Hwang Kee also went to the the Chung Do Kwan to learn a more "Japanese" way of doing things, this would mean he also has a link to Shotokan...Right? So some training in Kung Fu while in China, then some instruction via Okinawan books while in Japan, and then some lessons from Lee in the Japanese way while visiting the Chung Do Kwan. Do I have it kind of right?


I know this question was addressed to Ondrej, but I'll try to clarify and let others elaborate.

Tang Soo Do is, as you said, essentially Korean Karate-Do with influences from Kwan Jang Nim Kee Hwang's Manchurian connection (i.e. Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan). It should be noted that the individual Kwan Jang Nim Kee Hwang sites as his Yang Family connection is not shown in most Yang lineages - perhaps someone could shed more light on this.

The hyung we practice for the most part have counterparts in Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, etc. However, not all the hyung we practice are traced back through the Shorin-Ryu tradition - some are Shorei-Ryu. Gichin Funakoshi classified the internal kata (i.e. Jion, Seisan, etc.) as Shorei-Ryu; whereas, the external kata (i.e. Empi (Wang Shu), Gankaku (Chinto), etc.) were classified as Shorin-Ryu. It is interesting to point out that in the first issue of Classical Fighting Arts magazine there was an article that pointed out inconsistencies in this classification system.


Thanks. One more question? Shurei/Shorei is still related to Shao Lin, right?


Shorei-Ryu refers to the style of Karate-Do practiced in the Naha area of Okinawa. Shorin-Ryu refers to the style of Karate-Do practiced in the Tomari and Shuri areas of Okinawa.

In actuality, very little is known about the development of Karate before it arrived in Okinawa via merchants, government officials, etc. It is too simplistic to classify the roots of Karate as Shaolin - it is more likely that Karate was influenced by a variety of styles throughout China.

Well that sounds better. Okinawa learned from China via travels....

 

[Makalakumu]

Tang Soo Do is, as you said, essentially Korean Karate-Do with influences from Kwan Jang Nim Kee Hwang's Manchurian connection (i.e. Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan). It should be noted that the individual Kwan Jang Nim Kee Hwang sites as his Yang Family connection is not shown in most Yang lineages - perhaps someone could shed more light on this...

So that is why my instructor taught us a Yang tai chi form. The particular flavor of this form was Yang Lu Chan - through Yang San Shou. I wonder if there was a connection?

 

[glad2bhere]

"....The hyung we practice for the most part have counterparts in Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, etc. However, not all the hyung we practice are traced back through the Shorin-Ryu tradition - some are Shorei-Ryu. Gichin Funakoshi classified the internal kata (i.e. Jion, Seisan, etc.) as Shorei-Ryu; whereas, the external kata (i.e. Empi (Wang Shu), Gankaku (Chinto), etc.) were classified as Shorin-Ryu. It is interesting to point out that in the first issue of Classical Fighting Arts magazine there was an article that pointed out inconsistencies in this classification system...."

There have been a number of articles done in the old DRAGON TIMES (now the CLASSICAL FIGHTING ARTS) that have affirmed and reaffirmed that Funakoshi did not win any points for his attempts to form sub-categories of Okinawa-Te. Apparently both Miyagi and Motobu were highly insensed not only at the contrived divisions but Funakoshis' attempts to ascribe
a particular or optimal physique to each "syle". For the old masters such as Itosu Okinawan "Te" was just a single tradition of which certain individuals either by skill, temperment or the guidance of a teacher tended to pursue one aspect or another.

In similar fashion it hard to draw Shaolin Temple arts into the mix and noone has been able to adequately define what such arts are. Historically there is enough documentation to draw almost all influences into the Fukien/Fujian area of the southeastern coast. Various mixes of the Five Animals traditions, as well as Hong traditions were no doubt involved but these were essentially transplants from Northern Boxing methods. Ku San Ku the reported Chinese dignitary who brought a style of Chinese boxing to Okinawa resulting in the kata which bears his name is still a ghostly figure historically and noone has actually defined what it was that he taught. Trade, legal or not (See: Okinawa: History of an Island People), kept moving people back and forth between the coast and the island chain. Of course there is also the 13 Families (or was it "30"?) who were relocated to Okinawa to safeguard Ming interests much earlier. Reportedly they likewise brought Boxing material with them but its not actually known what, if any, particular tradition they might have introduced. People have made a hobby out of attempting to tease out aspects of the arts so as to trace a lineage but even such references as "internal" and "external" arts or techniques is poorly defined (even by the Chinese themselves--See: Stanley Hennings; multiple articles) and are usually attributed to fanciful writings of the 17th and 18th Cen.

For quite a while I have entertained the idea that were we to examine KMA as a transitory form between China and Japan the way that Okinawan arts were transitional between Southern China and Japan we might get more answers. Problem I run into is that too often people get so caught up in a vested interest in having their history one way or another that the larger picture is lost. Too bad really. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

For quite a while I have entertained the idea that were we to examine KMA as a transitory form between China and Japan the way that Okinawan arts were transitional between Southern China and Japan we might get more answers.-Bruce


BRAVO BRUCE! THIS IS A GREAT POST! I AGREE!

 

[Moo D]

Excellent Post Bruce,

The truth is out there somewhere???:asian:

Regards,