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A.R.K.
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Chufeng :asian:
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Once a person has made a claim, it is their responsibility to then prove it no matter what they think of the attitude of the person demanding the proof.
Otherwise, we get cases where people make claims and then never seem to find anyone whose attitude they find worthy of showing proof to. Many seem to take the stance that just by asking about their claims you are insulting them. Others find an excuse with the art of the person asking for proof. I have seen all these dodges before.
Wayne Muromoto talked about this when he wrote the article Are You in a Martial Arts Cult? Among other signs of a martial arts cult he cited this behavior,
And there are ways of checking many types of claims. If someone claims to be teaching a Japanese art, they should be found in a Japanese source. If someone claims to have gotten a rank from someone, then givng their name in public is a good start. There are ways of finding people on your own by means of phone books. And posting their certificates on the internet where people who read Japanese can see it is a good move. If nothing else, it gives those of us who can read Japanese a good laugh. I was sent one that was issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association". I saw another that said it was the "Whore House Association." A typical person running into this in a McDojo would not know they were so funny, but posting it on the internet lets many people of different abilities see it and somebody should be able to tell if it is fake.
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MartialArtist
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Puyallup??!!!! I have a grandson living in the Puget Sound area as well! I'd talk to him about visiting your school. Currently though, he's into MA, for self-defense and character building reasons, but he'd much rather play football and do track instead.
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A.R.K.
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Curious that you would feel this way....
People in countries around the world train in styles from other parts of the world. These systems have migrated extensively. An American studying a Ryu in the Middle East from an Arabic teacher should have ties to Asian sources? With respect I disagree. Sources often mean money has to be spent for approval/recognition which does nothing towards the actual ability of the practitioner. And there are probably organizations available in the country trained in, if one wishes to associate them. One does not need membership however in any organization to 'better' their training.
Assuming the individual allows it. Many instructors are private individuals that aren't looking for internet attention. And unless you know every teacher in the world...what does a name really do towards credibility? Someone with an agenda could merely say 'never heard of em'.
Any foriegn language can be copied and produced at Kinco's and posted. Stamps and seals can be bought in the back of magazines. Just because it's readable doesn't make it credible.
As I've already said, there is really no evidence that can be offered that can't be negatively spoken against even if authentic and reputable.
Unless you personally know....you don't know.
:asian:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Good point. It brings up one of the most important features of boards just like this one - communication.
If Chufeng wants to know what RyuShiKan is like, he can ask me. I have trained with him. I personally know.
Chufeng has trained with (I think) Taika Oyata. Taika Oyata was RyuShiKan's teacher. If I (or others outside Ryu Te) want to know what Taika is like, they can ask Chufeng or better yet RyuShiKan. They personally know.
Therefore, we have credible evidence to substantiate RyuShiKan's skills - both by knowing his teacher, and having experienced his skills first hand.
Lacking the ability to travel to Japan to train with him, folks that know me will have to take my word on it.
And so it goes.
Person A knows Persons B, C, and D personally. They train together, have coffee together, etc. Person B knows Persons E, F and G. By extension, then, if Person B says that Person A is well skilled, but Person C couldn't find their butt with both hands and a map, and Persons E, F and G have reason to believe that Person B knows what he/she is talking about, then they have credible evidence pointing to the fact that Person A kicks butt, and Person C can't find his...
Eventually, via boards like this, the MA community in the real world begins to shrink. The arnis folks here meet via camps during the year, and many of them know each other personally. They can all vouch for each other. Arnisador knows nbcdecon, my Modern Arnis teacher. Through nbcdecon, I have learned a little about Arnisador. Therefore, lacking the ability to meet Arnisador in person, and having respect for nbcdecon's skills and insights, I feel I know about Arnisador from a credible source.
So posting information on the internet is a very good source for both reinforcing the reputations of good schools, and exposing bad schools for the frauds they are. People all over this board have spoken out about and against Chung Moo Doe, Temple Kung Fu and other questionable arts, and have been able to get first hand testimonials both for and against those arts. They make use of the reputations people have on this board to function as their "personal knowledge" of the person posting their opinions. And like I said before several times, at some point you have to trust somebody...
I can sympathize with someone wanting to remain out of the spotlight. Fine. But for their students who choose to enter the public arena, at some point their names are going to have to come up. Sure, not everyone knows everyone, but the "reasonable person standard" can apply here... Not every "reasonable person" has an axe to grind, so most "reasonable people" will recognize their innate inability to know everyone or everything... That's my job!
As for the bogus Asian language certificates... I get a real kick out of them! I can read a little (not much, really), and have seen a few schools whose banners were a real hoot - not even close for what they claimed to be representing!
Musashi said that this kind of misrepresentation was going on in his time... Somehow I don't think it is really going to get any better. But that doesn't stop me from "perservering..."
Gambarimasu. (which means "to perservere" for the folks that didn't get my little joke...
):asian:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Did I reply to this before? I don't remember...
No, the material is the same... Its presentation may be different, but the core elements, the doctrine, the theory, the movement, etc., are all identical.
I teach punching and kicking as nothing more than controlled, directed natural movements. This helps, in my opinion, the non-MAist to grasp the idea a little better. When you throw in our body mechanics, they see immediately that the body mechanics make the technique just come out... All they have to do, then, is aim it.
That is not how I was taught, nor is it how other Yili instructors teach. But their students and my students all execute the same punches and kicks...
Same material, different wrapper.
So just because I change the presentation of my sushi, doesn't make the fish a different fish nor the rice different rice... It may look a little different from the last plate, but it is still rice and fish...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Of course, this is unfair--like most of my friends in the service, he's a very nice guy who'd say polite and upbeat things about anyone. To the extent that he's spoken well of me I'm sure he's exaggerated and to the extent that he's spoken critically of me I'm sure he's cut it in half.
When I job hunt--frequently in my profession, where one often must change employers to advance (which then has negative effects on my training of course)--two of my references are retired brigadier generals, and I feel it's unfair to prospective employers because they are such nice, positive, upbeat people that they'd make anyone look good!
It's been years since I've seen nbcdecon but Mr. Hartman keeps me informed of his doings in Japan. The last time we were together I was helping him stretch during warm-up--he had his leg just about directly over his head while standing on the other one.
Ah, it's a small world--we have one degree of separation, you and I!
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Nah... He said you were a %$#**^%$ sorry ^%$#^%$# ladyboy %$#@&^%$&$#&^ without a *&^^%$)_!
Other than that, he seemed to think you were pretty okay... :lol:I haven't seen nor trained with him in over 7 months. I miss the psycho quite a bit. His life is pretty hectic right now, but last I heard he was giving some consideration to trying his hand in the ring... Not sure whether that coalesced or not. What I do remember was his stick thundering toward my hands... And never landing. His control was so good that he could lay that stick on you at full speed and only touch skin - no sting, no pain, just contact and control. That more than anything else was what made me want to study with him... He actually approached me and a Yili student I had there because he saw us walking the circle and he had an interest in Baguazhang... Really glad I met him. I still count him as one of the best friends I have.
And that is sort of my point from upthread... I know him, you know him. We both know of his skill and can testify that he's good. So you can tell people and I can tell people, and if they trust us, they trust our judgement, and therefore will accept our opinion that he is good. Done deal.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
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chufeng
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- #89
He's more than welcome, anytime...
:asian:
chufeng
:asian:
chufeng
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chufeng
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- #90
I forgot the reason I posted this...
chufeng
chufeng
A Japanese art that has never been heard of in Japan, only the Middle East? Silly. And if you are talking about someone who studied Judo or something from someone in the Middle East, then this person should be able to show proof of his teacher. If he claims a Kodokan black belt, then the Kodokan in Tokyo should be able to back up their claim.
Sometimes, but not always. Not even in the vast majority of cases. If someone wanted to say they trained in a Japanese martial art, but there was not even a single Japanese source for it like the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten, that is a pretty clear sign that someone is lying.
True, which is why some people never talk about the orginizations they have been in, but rather let their ability speak for themselves. Those that claim to have been part of an orginization- or gotten rank from them, do not do this and thus the onus is on them to back up their claims.
If this is the case, then the person who is on the internet and made the claims should respect their teachers wishes by never putting them in the position in the first place. If someone claims to have gotten to have gotten a eighth dan, then the question of from whom will come up sooner or later. If they do not want their teacher to be bothered, they should not make the claim of recieving rank in the first place. I knew one guy who claimed that all he was teaching us was stuff he picked up from old magazines. With the skill he showed, he did not have to try to impress us with who he trained with or what rank he got.
People that claim to have studied X number of years or under A sensei or gotten Y rank do not try to impress people with their ability. And the onus for the proof is on them.
Not everyone has an agenda. And if they did and said they never heard of them, then when someone else proved that the person existed and verified the claimnent's story, then the person with the agenda would look silly in the eyes of the entire internet. And with the information superhighway, a persons identity can usually be found and people who know him and are nuetral can be contacted to verify stories.
The certificate I talked about from the Heavenly Dog Association seemed to be just this. It was funny because the guy did not know what to cut out, and what to leave in. Japanese is a difficult language and the chances that someone could peice one together without some ability is roughly the same as putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter and having it duplicate
Shakespeare.
Someone can always take such an attitude. You can quote specific books and page numbers but there may well be people who claim the books do not exist. But you do give onlookers the chance to find the source and see for themselves. And to use the chance that someone will deny proof as an excuse to turn down anyone from getting the chance to look up a claim for themself is a pretty good indicator of a complete fraud and incompetent.
And again, if ability is all that is important, then talk of time spent training or ranks given is silly- so why are they making the claims in the first place? Once they make the claim, it is their responsibilty to back it up.
Originally posted by akja
But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.
My friend, you need to take a trip "Down Under"!
The version of Ryukyu Kempo that I am learning, incorporates all ranges of combat.
I think you would be quite surprised as to how in-depth we go.
--Dave
:asian:
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RyuShiKan
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Don,
Excellent posts!
You have said many of the many of the things I wanted to convey.
Excellent posts!
You have said many of the many of the things I wanted to convey.
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RyuShiKan
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Well actually you cant just go to Kinkos and get them made.
Menkyo/Menjo are not usually copied but hand written ..even in this day in age.
Why???????
So scumbags dont go to Kinkos and get copies made.
Stamps and seal must match other certificates stamps and seals by the same organization/teacher.
Also the stamps you get out of the back of magazines are VERY basic and not used on menjo/menkyo. They are easy to spot as being fake.
Anyone that has trained in Japan for a while and received rank here could spot a fake rank certificate in a nanosecond.
I have spotted several fake dan certificates that were posted on the net ..its easy.
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RyuShiKan
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Don,
I especially like your comment:
This comment could be said about bogus rank claimers too.
It seems the bozos that claim rank has no meaning also claim the highest grades and most ranks too!!
Oh the irony:rofl:
I especially like your comment:
This comment could be said about bogus rank claimers too.
It seems the bozos that claim rank has no meaning also claim the highest grades and most ranks too!!
Oh the irony:rofl:
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MartialArtist
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Try looking at places other than the mallOriginally posted by akja
When I say almost repackaging. I'm achknowledging the fact that somewhere in time somebody has done it all before.
I try to "present the whole package" you might say. What is differant is the "amount" ground grappling I emphasize. Not to mention the standup comes from Jun Fan. Everybody is saying "we grapple." but from what I've observed, they don't put much time in it.
I'm a natural standup fighter, so for me to talk "emphasizing" ground grappling, then there must be something there.
I don't teach someone to think of the ground as a first choice but I do teach them what to do when they are there and if someone is better at standup than them, then yes use the ground.
Last time I checked the only people who take ground grappling serious are grapplers. The majority of the the standup arts are weak in their ground game. I know what I'm talking about. I've rolled with all types, and the standup fighters show up for "pure matwork" because they don't get that in their schools.
But if you could please show me "who and where" these traditional schools are that are already "training in all ranges of combat with the belief that all fighting ranges should be understood and practiced together", I would really like to check them out.
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A.R.K.
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Yiliquan 1,
Assuming that everyone of them is honest and doesn't have an axe to grind or agenda or hurt feelings or is their best buddy or.....
Still subjective and boils down to what a person wishes to accept as factual and wishes to believe.
Bingo.
Don,
You misread my post. I said someone who has trained in a particular style [Japan or other] in the middle east by an Arabic instructor need not have any direct connection to the [alleged] originating country. If Mr. Smith an American lives in Nigeria and wishes to take TKD from a Nigerian national instructor he may do so. If he wishes to belong to a Nigerian TKD association or any other he may do so. But if he chooses not to that is fine as well. It is not going to increase his skill one iota to pay the high fees demanded by the Kukkiwon just to have their peace of paper.
Nope this is incorrect. As I stated above. I can learn BJJ in America, I can learn TKD in Brazil, I can learn Yudo in Greenland. The only thing needed is a qualified instructor. Mr. Smith doesn't need paper from anywhere except perhaps his own instructor.
On this we agree. Some people will whine and pitch a fit regardless of what they actually know first hand. Some have a preconcieved idea regardless of any diologe. pointless really to entertain them further..just let them blow. Eventually they'll wear themselves out.
Perhaps, but Japanese speaking people live outside Japan. All it takes is asking someone fluent to assist.
RyuShiKan,
Anything can be duplicated with enough time and effort. Perhaps well, perhaps poorly.
In general,
Ability over paper. Paper is subjective and relative. Some accept, some don't. Bottom line is to go home safe to those you love.
:asian:
Assuming that everyone of them is honest and doesn't have an axe to grind or agenda or hurt feelings or is their best buddy or.....
Still subjective and boils down to what a person wishes to accept as factual and wishes to believe.
Bingo.
Don,
You misread my post. I said someone who has trained in a particular style [Japan or other] in the middle east by an Arabic instructor need not have any direct connection to the [alleged] originating country. If Mr. Smith an American lives in Nigeria and wishes to take TKD from a Nigerian national instructor he may do so. If he wishes to belong to a Nigerian TKD association or any other he may do so. But if he chooses not to that is fine as well. It is not going to increase his skill one iota to pay the high fees demanded by the Kukkiwon just to have their peace of paper.
Nope this is incorrect. As I stated above. I can learn BJJ in America, I can learn TKD in Brazil, I can learn Yudo in Greenland. The only thing needed is a qualified instructor. Mr. Smith doesn't need paper from anywhere except perhaps his own instructor.
On this we agree. Some people will whine and pitch a fit regardless of what they actually know first hand. Some have a preconcieved idea regardless of any diologe. pointless really to entertain them further..just let them blow. Eventually they'll wear themselves out.
Perhaps, but Japanese speaking people live outside Japan. All it takes is asking someone fluent to assist.
RyuShiKan,
Anything can be duplicated with enough time and effort. Perhaps well, perhaps poorly.
In general,
Ability over paper. Paper is subjective and relative. Some accept, some don't. Bottom line is to go home safe to those you love.
:asian:
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RyuShiKan
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- #98
ZDW, MRJ, ARK, Dave Schultz or whatever you are calling yourself today,
Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that persons hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you wont be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinkos just wont cut it.
Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have ..and more than likely have met them at some point in time .say during the examination to get said high dan rank.
Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike.
It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.
Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy.
Nice over generalization but your missing the point.
There are several ways to help prevent forgery of dan ranks.
First, they are hand written. Unless you can reproduce that persons hand writing, which is EXTREMELY difficult, you wont be able to. Getting a copy made at Kinkos just wont cut it.
Second, they are also numbered and dated. So if by off chance you get hold of a real one, try and scratch out the name and put yours in, you still have to match the date and number. If your number is higher than someone that got rank recently but yours is dated 5 years ago something is wrong! Also, most organization have a good idea of how many higher dan ranks they have ..and more than likely have met them at some point in time .say during the examination to get said high dan rank.
Third, the hanko or stanp. Damn near impossible to copy one. You can make one with the same words on it but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to reproduce one that looks the same since they are hand carved. This means they are similar to a fingerprint and no two carvings are ever alike.
It seems like the people that say things like this are the ones that make the most bogus claims to rank and more often than not seem to be the head of or belong many organization that promote people.
Spotting fake dan ranks and is rather easy.
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MartialArtist
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That is stupid talk. If an instructor is teaching a Japanese art in the Middle East, he should have some connection to Japan. If an instructor is teaching a Middle Eastern art in Japan, he should have ties to the Middle East, as simple as that. If a Nigerian TKD association awards someone a black belt, then it really isn't worth anything out there in the real world, I'm sorry. When the guy receives a 9th dan from the Nigerian TKD association, and advertises that he has a 9th degree, but his sources don't check out with Kukkiwon, then it isn't worth it. Like everyone poitned out, if rank isn't important, why do they mention that they have a 9th degree from some second-hand organization?
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MartialArtist
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When someone claims a rank, I want it to be from the authentic source. I am an instructor (not really), and I do not belong to any organization in terms of teaching. I do belong to Kukkiwon but not as an instructor. My program is basically free, and anyone can join it. What I do is condition the people, toughen them up, go over the basics of all ranges of fighting, help people improve their athleticism and qualities that are needed to defend themselves. You can compare my classes to a military academy for comissioned, or boot camp for the enlisted. After my basic and advanced programs, I advise them to search for a school depending on what they're looking for. I recommend them to move on and give a few suggestions on where they could go.
Other than that, the few other arts that I do no care what organization they belong to is boxing and wrestling. Boxing, there is no rank. And the "organizations" are in very bad shape. Wrestling, it's individual really past college. There are clubs, there are some organizations, but there are a lot of "freelancers". But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama.
Other than that, the few other arts that I do no care what organization they belong to is boxing and wrestling. Boxing, there is no rank. And the "organizations" are in very bad shape. Wrestling, it's individual really past college. There are clubs, there are some organizations, but there are a lot of "freelancers". But if someone claims to teach kyokushin and they have an 8th dan, I would like to see some relation to Mas Oyama.
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