Circular punch

Flying Crane

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My primary empty hand training is in Wing Chun, a short-bridge, linear southern Chinese martial art but I have to agree with Crane and Jow Ga. Those long-bridge, circular punches properly executed generate a lot of power. Moreover, when it comes to how much useful damage a technique an do, I'm not sure how far I would trust a "StrikeMeter" reading. I've never used one, but from what I've seen, there are a lot more variables involved besides what a device like that might measure.

BTW when dealing with multiple attackers, even in a "linear style" like Wing Chun we often fall back on flailing fak-sau and man-sau strikes which have a long reach and a somewhat circular quality, and a similar whipping force augmented by body rotation. Heck even a standard karate/mma spinning backfist is similar in concept.

To sum it up, I wouldn't underestimate these circular, whipping long-bridge strikes when dealt by an experienced fighter!
I would absolutely put the spinning backfist into the list as a circular punch. I believe there are better and worse ways to root and rotate to deliver the power with it, not everyone does it the same. But when done well, it can be devastating. I practice the spinning backfist on a heavy bag regularly. It is very powerful.
 

JowGaWolf

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From what I’ve seen, I wonder if a lot of systems haven’t created a systematic approach to training it. It’s discussed and described, and then just “see, throw the punch and move like this.”

I think it is hard for most students to really get it that way. There needs to be a way to break down the concept into smaller components that can be drilled and repeated in order to instill the physical memory and understand what it really is.
The way that I learned was to try to do what was described to me. So when my sifu at the time stated that I want to move my weight into the punch, then I practiced that over and over until if felt like that. I literally keep failing at it and one day "clarity" hit me and I was able to do it, but it took a lot of failures before I could get it right.

My personal experience says repetition and failing was key. I had to learn to accept that I would fail many times, but accept that I will eventually get it right. It may take less time than I expect or it may take longer than I wanted, but I would eventually understand "how to". I've seen a lot of students give up the effort.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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I have to agree with Crane and Jow Ga. Those long-bridge, circular punches properly executed generate a lot of power.
Back in the 70, there was a tournament in Hong Kong. In that tournament, a CLF guy threw a right circular punch. A WC guy used a left Tan Shou to block it. That CLF guy's circular punch not only knocked through the WC guy's left Tan Shou, but also hit on the WC guy's head. After the tournament, the WC guy went back and tried to get solution from his teacher Ip Men. Ip Men told him to use a right Tan Shou (plus body rotation) to block an opponent's right circular punch instead.

3 of Ip Men's students all told me the same story on that.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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- Slower than a less-looping punch
- Leave you much wider open
- Not as powerful as a punch that actuates the elbow

... This type of technique pretty much fails at all three.
Will this clip be able to change your opinion?

Gung-l-I-circular-punch.gif


 
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JowGaWolf

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I'm going to call BS on this. Going at 40% there's no way to hit you with a straight punch? You're posting stills to back this up instead of video. It also looks like you're throwing a long hook instead of a circular punch.
There's no need to show you the video. You wouldn't be able to point out the things that just I mentioned in the screenshots simply by looking at the video. I'm not sure if know Jow Ga long fist techniques, but we don't use anything that would come close to describing a "long hook." You still wouldn't believe me about the 40% because you never sparred with me and you.

So with those things being true. You'll just have to not believe me can call what I say as BS.
 

Buka

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I've been hit with those wide circular punches. It was not fun.
 

JowGaWolf

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Um...what? Your opponent has ample time to block, and then counter-attack because these punches tend to not retract as fast.
If you are chasing the wrong thing, because a strike deceived you then you'll never have enough time. That's why people get kicked in the face when they reach low to block a kick that they think will hit their leg. Once you make one decision, it takes quite a bit of time for you to be able to reverse that decision and make the correct. By the time you realize you made the wrong move, you'll only have enough time to tense up your face and prepare for impact.

You know...one that is telegraphed, has a wide angle that makes it slow, and then hangs there for a second without retracting the arm (which makes it easy to grab the arm).
When a long fist circular punch is done correct, it will travel outside of your field of vision and your brain will stop processing it all together, literally forgetting that it's a punch. I've been able to easily hit people with slower punches.

When done correctly the punch hides behind the body or close enough to the body so that your eyes don't pick it up. That's what is happening here.
upload_2021-1-10_19-48-58-png.23537



In addition to that. Trying to grab circular punches is not the best way to approach them because of the path that they travel. An attempt to grab the punch will most likely fall short. Linear punches go straight so all you have to do is intercept a linear path. Circular punches can change the path that the travel.

If you were to compare a linear punch it would be the x-axis. Traveling in a straight path. Let's say 0 represents The person punching. It is the origin of the punch. Lets say at (1,0) represent inches away from the body that the arm has traveled. So with a linear punch, by the time it moves an inch away from the body, that's the path that it will continue to take to a person's face at (7,0) Now lets take a look a the wave. The Sine wave represents a long fist technique. From 0 inches to 1 inch we can see that their are 2 different circulars punches takes a different path, but they share the same point of travel at (1,.08) So at 1 inch away from the body is where that path of the punch can change directions. Lets say the steep wave is an upper cut, the bigger wave is targeting the head. So I can start with a punch that looks like an upper cut and then change it to a punch that attacks the head.
image016.jpg

Because circular punches can loop back without stopping, I'll be able to attack left or right using the same arm. In this graph, the left side is above the A axis. The right is is below the x-axis. If my circular punch comes from the left side and travels right, then when it gets to the right side. I can make it to the opposite of what it did on the left side. If my Palm is the impact surface going left to right, then the back of my hand with be the impact service going right to left.

The problem with circular punches is that you don't know when that of the punch will change, unless the person only knows how to throw one type of Circular punch. If all you know are big circular hay makers then it's easy to find the path because only one path exists.
 

JowGaWolf

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Anyone who is trained in a sport art is just going to throw a straight or a teep and get you before you land the punch.
In systems that use circular long fist punches, student are taught by default that the circular punches can be used to either attack the guard, incoming strike, the body, or the head. It doesn't matter because the movement stays the same. Here's me using a circular punch to attack a round house kick. A linear would be addressed in a similar way. Here you can see that I 'm willing to punish that kicking leg with a circular punch. Here it's important to keep my punch circular so that the kick doesn't break my arm. A circular punch isn't a head on colision
upload_2021-1-11_17-40-6.png


This is a few frames later. I'm holding his leg up because it this happen right when the round ended. The reason my hand is under the kick is because the punch was circular. Had it been liner I would have driven force vs force and I would lose.
upload_2021-1-11_17-49-28.png



Using this graph again. Think of the sine wave as horizontal punches. The x -axis is your teep or linear punch. With the horizontal and the vertical punches we step off our opponents center line. So in the case that the circular punches do not connect then stepping off the center line will ultimately protect us from being hit full force, provided that we aren't standing there like a deer looking at headlight.

image016.jpg
 

JowGaWolf

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Like I said, I've tested it on a strike meter. The wide, circular motion was nowhere near what the straighter punches were.
Not sure what you are talking about. If you don't train long fist circular punches then there's no way you would be able to fully connect the power. If you can't do this then your test will be off and biased towards your ability to do one punch and the inability to do another.
 

skribs

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There's no need to show you the video. You wouldn't be able to point out the things that just I mentioned in the screenshots simply by looking at the video. I'm not sure if know Jow Ga long fist techniques, but we don't use anything that would come close to describing a "long hook." You still wouldn't believe me about the 40% because you never sparred with me and you.

So with those things being true. You'll just have to not believe me can call what I say as BS.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

If I saw a video I'd believe you less? I think that means I should believe you less.

If you are chasing the wrong thing, because a strike deceived you then you'll never have enough time. That's why people get kicked in the face when they reach low to block a kick that they think will hit their leg. Once you make one decision, it takes quite a bit of time for you to be able to reverse that decision and make the correct. By the time you realize you made the wrong move, you'll only have enough time to tense up your face and prepare for impact.


When a long fist circular punch is done correct, it will travel outside of your field of vision and your brain will stop processing it all together, literally forgetting that it's a punch. I've been able to easily hit people with slower punches.

When done correctly the punch hides behind the body or close enough to the body so that your eyes don't pick it up. That's what is happening here.
upload_2021-1-10_19-48-58-png.23537



In addition to that. Trying to grab circular punches is not the best way to approach them because of the path that they travel. An attempt to grab the punch will most likely fall short. Linear punches go straight so all you have to do is intercept a linear path. Circular punches can change the path that the travel.

If you were to compare a linear punch it would be the x-axis. Traveling in a straight path. Let's say 0 represents The person punching. It is the origin of the punch. Lets say at (1,0) represent inches away from the body that the arm has traveled. So with a linear punch, by the time it moves an inch away from the body, that's the path that it will continue to take to a person's face at (7,0) Now lets take a look a the wave. The Sine wave represents a long fist technique. From 0 inches to 1 inch we can see that their are 2 different circulars punches takes a different path, but they share the same point of travel at (1,.08) So at 1 inch away from the body is where that path of the punch can change directions. Lets say the steep wave is an upper cut, the bigger wave is targeting the head. So I can start with a punch that looks like an upper cut and then change it to a punch that attacks the head.
image016.jpg

Because circular punches can loop back without stopping, I'll be able to attack left or right using the same arm. In this graph, the left side is above the A axis. The right is is below the x-axis. If my circular punch comes from the left side and travels right, then when it gets to the right side. I can make it to the opposite of what it did on the left side. If my Palm is the impact surface going left to right, then the back of my hand with be the impact service going right to left.

The problem with circular punches is that you don't know when that of the punch will change, unless the person only knows how to throw one type of Circular punch. If all you know are big circular hay makers then it's easy to find the path because only one path exists.

Hahahahahahahaha.

"Once you make a decision." People who are trained to fight don't make decisions. They react. They see an opening, they take it. And if they're used to that opening being the narrow window provided by a hook punch, it's going to be easy to hit that big swinging punch.

By your standards, I should use my 540 kicks in sparring. Because they are known for being too slow for practical use, they should be more practical!!!!!!!!

In systems that use circular long fist punches, student are taught by default that the circular punches can be used to either attack the guard, incoming strike, the body, or the head. It doesn't matter because the movement stays the same. Here's me using a circular punch to attack a round house kick. A linear would be addressed in a similar way. Here you can see that I 'm willing to punish that kicking leg with a circular punch. Here it's important to keep my punch circular so that the kick doesn't break my arm. A circular punch isn't a head on colision
View attachment 23549

This is a few frames later. I'm holding his leg up because it this happen right when the round ended. The reason my hand is under the kick is because the punch was circular. Had it been liner I would have driven force vs force and I would lose.
View attachment 23550


Using this graph again. Think of the sine wave as horizontal punches. The x -axis is your teep or linear punch. With the horizontal and the vertical punches we step off our opponents center line. So in the case that the circular punches do not connect then stepping off the center line will ultimately protect us from being hit full force, provided that we aren't standing there like a deer looking at headlight.

image016.jpg

Yeah, um...you can do all that stuff without doing the circular punch. Is this an infomercial?

Not sure what you are talking about. If you don't train long fist circular punches then there's no way you would be able to fully connect the power. If you can't do this then your test will be off and biased towards your ability to do one punch and the inability to do another.

Oh, so since I don't drink your koolaid, I don't get to go on the spaceship when the Martians come to take us to the next level of ascension?

I can't tell if you're arrogant or delusional. Probably both. But this was great for a laugh!
 

Flying Crane

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

If I saw a video I'd believe you less? I think that means I should believe you less.



Hahahahahahahaha.

"Once you make a decision." People who are trained to fight don't make decisions. They react. They see an opening, they take it. And if they're used to that opening being the narrow window provided by a hook punch, it's going to be easy to hit that big swinging punch.

By your standards, I should use my 540 kicks in sparring. Because they are known for being too slow for practical use, they should be more practical!!!!!!!!



Yeah, um...you can do all that stuff without doing the circular punch. Is this an infomercial?



Oh, so since I don't drink your koolaid, I don't get to go on the spaceship when the Martians come to take us to the next level of ascension?

I can't tell if you're arrogant or delusional. Probably both. But this was great for a laugh!
Wow. Seriously, what is up with the attitude? Kool aid? Seriously?

You don’t need to agree, nor like circular punches. We all find our own path in this. But what’s up with the personal attacks? I mean, you just jumped in with all this attitude, “calling BS” and stuff.

Seriously, what gives? Why not just discuss and debate? Why the hostility?
 

JowGaWolf

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If your opponent dodges under your circular punch, he may get you into a reverse head lock.
In Jow Ga we throw 2 punches. You dodge the first, the second punch will find you. You dodge the second punch, the second punch can then be looped to start the combos all over again. We can punch moving forward, moving left, moving right, moving backwards.

My sparring partner used to try to duck my punches and it usually resulted in him eating an upper cut, which often forced me to stop the sparring match because he kept putting himself in danger like that. In Jow Ga we learn that the 2nd punch follows the 1st punch, But that's just basics. In reality the punches follow but each hand has it's own target. Sometimes it's the same target and sometimes it's not. So when he saw me throw a horizontal punch at he is head, he would think the second would follow.

The question is. What happens if the second hand doesn't follow? I think the real martial arts training only begins after the student asks questions like that.
 

skribs

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Wow. Seriously, what is up with the attitude? Kool aid? Seriously?

You don’t need to agree, nor like circular punches. We all find our own path in this. But what’s up with the personal attacks? I mean, you just jumped in with all this attitude, “calling BS” and stuff.

Seriously, what gives? Why not just discuss and debate? Why the hostility?

He's taken away the option to discuss and debate. He's said that because I don't train his art, I can't possibly grasp what he's talking about. So there's nothing left to debate. Any points I make, he'll just say, "well, you don't train Long Fist, so your point is irrelevant" (only in a lot more words).

Why should I bother trying to discuss and debate with him if I'm not allowed to have an opinion? So I'll just be hostile. Why should I try to be reasonable when he is not?
 

JowGaWolf

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

If I saw a video I'd believe you less? I think that means I should believe you less.
Since you know so much about Jow Ga and Circular punches. Then Explain what is going on here. Explain the tactics I used to set this up and why he couldn't answer with a linear punch, a linear kick, or a teep. Knock yourself out.

By the way this Intensity Full does not mean Full intensity. Full here means the complete video from beginning to end.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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be looped to start the combos all over again.
In long fist, if you dodge my right hook punch, my right hook punch will change into a right back fist. If you block my right back fist, either my right back fist will change into another right hook punch, or my left hook punch will come to your head.

The "loop" then start all over again. This is why I like the circular punch so much.
 
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Flying Crane

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He's taken away the option to discuss and debate. He's said that because I don't train his art, I can't possibly grasp what he's talking about. So there's nothing left to debate. Any points I make, he'll just say, "well, you don't train Long Fist, so your point is irrelevant" (only in a lot more words).

Why should I bother trying to discuss and debate with him if I'm not allowed to have an opinion? So I'll just be hostile. Why should I try to be reasonable when he is not?
What is unreasonable about pointing out that you haven’t trained in the method, so you don’t understand how it is done. Not only that, but you haven’t spent time training those types of punches, so you cannot do them effectively and powerfully.

You object to that? Where is your disagreement?
 

JowGaWolf

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I can't tell if you're arrogant or delusional.
Neither. I'm just blunt these days. I pretty much see the same thing as last year. I say something, then post reference pictures of it happening. Yet people like you will call me arrogant and not once did you explain why I was wrong /incorrect about what I stated.
 
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