Chi Sau & Grappling

[KPM]

So you see chi sau as being directly applicable to fighting?

Not the Chi Sau "structure" as it is drilled. But the Chi Sau skills used at that range should transition over to fighting. The idea that you are trying to hit someone, they put up a defense to keep from being hit, which makes contact with your punching arm forming a "bridge" and then you use that contact and your Chi Sau skills to clear away their obstruction and continue to hit them. Or you are in scrap and things are not working as planned and you are in close with an opponent trying to put hands on you and tie you up to keep you from striking...that is where Chi Sau skills should kick in. And that is also where it becomes similar to the "clinch." And just the idea that the Chi Sau rolling platform used for training can be a jumping off point for either closing to grapple or for striking, also makes it similar to the "clinch."

 

[KPM]

Well I wouldn't say "either case". WC grappling leaves a lot to be desired.

Cross-training would be a better option.

No. You said this: Boxing teaches you to go for the clinch when you're taking too much punishment from striking range. Bjj teaches you to throw and perform takedowns from the clinch.

By "either case" I meant that Chi Sau can also function to help you out when you are taking too much punishment at striking range as well as when someone is trying to throw you or perform a takedown. And I don't mean the Chi Sau rolling structure. I mean the skills developed by training Chi Sau.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, but again that doesn't mean WC can't deliver a few effective techniques to fill a gap. It's not an absolute, black-or-white issue.

I never said that. I simply said that if your goal is to be a better fighter, you're better off cross-training. A WC exponent who only does Wing Chun is going to be worse off than a WC exponent who supplemented his training with Bjj, especially when it comes to grappling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never said that. I simply said that if your goal is to be a better fighter, you're better off cross-training. A WC exponent who only does Wing Chun is going to be worse off than a WC exponent who supplemented his training with Bjj, especially when it comes to grappling.

You'll get no argument on that point. My point is just that WC can improve the situation for those who don't cross-train.

 

[Juany118]

But Sifu Bayer says is response to... "What is your opinion of cross training eg Wing Chun and Brazilian Jiu jitsu?"

To attain combat proficiancy in Ving Tsun, you have to train very hard, to keep this level even harder… there is no time for implementing other ideas.

Now of course I disagree with this BUT it seems odd people who believe Bayer is THE living voice of WSL would say cross training is a good idea...

Wing Chun Masters: Philipp Bayer - Snake vs Crane Wing Chun

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Boxing teaches you to go for the clinch when you're taking too much punishment from striking range.

It's much harder to use "short range boxing guard" to wrap your opponent's arms to establish a successful clinch than to use the "long range WC Tan Shou guard".

When you use

- "boxing guard", your arms are too close to your own head. When your opponent's punches arrives, those punches are too fast and too powerful.
- "WC Tan Shou", your hand is far away from your head and near your opponent's head, when your opponent punches, you can use your Tan Shou to interrupt his punches during his "initial punching stage" before his can generate speed and power.

The WC Tan Shou can help you to extend your arm between your opponent's arm and his head and separate his arm away from his body.

I agree that after the clinch is established, there won't be any difference whether you may come from WC or boxing. It's how to switch from heavy punches mode into clinch mode that can make a big difference.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can use WC Chi Shou to develop:

- push,
- pull,
- drag,
- guide,
- tuck,
- jam,
- separate,
- ...

All those skills are useful in both striking and grappling.

 

[Hanzou]

It's much harder to use "short range boxing guard" to wrap your opponent's arms to establish a successful clinch than to use the "long range WC Tan Shou guard".

When you use

- "boxing guard", your arms are too close to your own head. When your opponent's punches arrives, those punches are too fast and too powerful.
- "WC Tan Shou", your hand is far away from your head and near your opponent's head, when your opponent punches, you can use your Tan Shou to interrupt his punches during his "initial punching stage" before his can generate speed and power.

The WC Tan Shou can help you to extend your arm between your opponent's arm and his head and separate his arm away from his body.

I agree that after the clinch is established, there won't be any difference whether you may come from WC or boxing. It's how to switch from heavy punches mode into clinch mode that can make a big difference.

I'm not seeing what the boxing guard has to do with what I was talking about, which was the clinch. Boxers are quite adept (if not masters) at evading punches and entering the clinch. In fact it's a pretty integral part of their method.

If you're well versed in Bjj's clinch-based takedowns, you really should have no problem initiating takedowns and throws once you've established the clinch.

I'm not sure if this is by design, but its quite interesting how well Bjj works with and against boxing and striking in general. I would argue that its fairly likely that Maeda developed his system of Jiujitsu (Judo) to directly deal with striking from all of his challenge matches he participated in. Alternatively, it could have came later via the Brazilians.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would argue that its fairly likely that Maeda developed his system of Jiujitsu (Judo) to directly deal with striking from all of his challenge matches he participated in. Alternatively, it could have came later via the Brazilians.

The small amount of research I've done leads me to believe both are involved. I think the biggest influence is as you suggest, and that the Brazilians refined it into a coherent system with better transmitability.

 

[JPinAZ]

....The idea of chi sau range therefore makes no sense. In practical terms (as a grappler) it also makes no sense, since keeping someone in chi sau is virtually impossible if they don't want to stay there.

Agree with that last part.

To use this as a point of discussion, in my experience 2-handed chi sau (taan/bong/fook) isn't something we look to do at all - it's something we have to do because our opponent was able to force us into that position/timeframe. It is used to stop the fight from going into grabbing/grappling, not as a way to enter it. Now, I guess if someone wants to give up the advantage chi sau offers in that situation to agree to grapple/wrestle, that's on them. But IMO it's not efficient use of WC principles, strategy & tactics.

Overall I think that it is best to think of chi sau as a cooperative trainng drill, not a fighting range between hitting and grappling.

As a point of discussion: Forgetting about range, as there are different ranges and facing for WC chi sau bridging (single hand, 2 hand, open vs close stance, dui ying/jeu ying, etc), I would say WC's chi sau technology is exactly the 'time-frame' between striking and grappling - time-frame being the better term here. And yes, chi sau technology has direct fighting application.

In WC our goal isn't to 'chi', our goal is to hit - it's up to our opponent whether or not we have to chi. This is what Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung is all about.

 

[Vajramusti]

I never said that. I simply said that if your goal is to be a better fighter, you're better off cross-training. A WC exponent who only does Wing Chun is going to be worse off than a WC exponent who supplemented his training with Bjj, especially when it comes to grappling.

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Depends on which wing chun you are talking about/

 

[Gerry Seymour]

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Depends on which wing chun you are talking about/

I"m not sure it does depend. There are only a few systems out there that could claim BJJ doesn't add significantly to their fighting ability. That's not a shot against any (nor all) styles - it's a recognition that BJJ is highly effective, especially when you end up on the ground or want to avoid doing so. And having that ability - at the level BJJ offers - adds to nearly anyone's ability as a fighter.

 

[Vajramusti]

I"m not sure it does depend. There are only a few systems out there that could claim BJJ doesn't add significantly to their fighting ability. That's not a shot against any (nor all) styles - it's a recognition that BJJ is highly effective, especially when you end up on the ground or want to avoid doing so. And having that ability - at the level BJJ offers - adds to nearly anyone's ability as a fighter.

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That's your opinion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

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That's your opinion.

Yes, it is. Do you have a different view?

 

[KPM]

Yes, it is. Do you have a different view?

He does! But lately he is also the king of the drive by "one liner." So maybe he'll tell you his view. Maybe not!

 

[Steve]

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That's your opinion.

For some reason, this reminds me of the back and forth between Jesus and Pilate in Jesus Christ Superstar.

"Are you king of the Jews?" "Your words, not mine." "What do you mean by that? That is not an answer!"

I haven't listened to this in a long time... I think I'll bring it back out. The exchange is a little ways in. Pilate asks a long question and Jesus is just like, "nope." Trolls the roman with in line answers that don't say anything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For some reason, this reminds me of the back and forth between Jesus and Pilate in Jesus Christ Superstar.

"Are you king of the Jews?" "Your words, not mine." "What do you mean by that? That is not an answer!"

I haven't listened to this in a long time... I think I'll bring it back out. The exchange is a little ways in. Pilate asks a long question and Jesus is just like, "nope." Trolls the roman with in line answers that don't say anything.

I was in that show in college (Simon). That brings back memories, Steve. One of my favorite exchanges.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not seeing what the boxing guard has to do with what I was talking about, ...

What I'm trying to say is, it's easier to establish a clinch from the CMA strategy than from the boxing strategy.

- Boxing is a pure striking art. In boxing, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA is a mix of striking art and grappling art. In CMA, a punch is a punch followed by a "pull".

IMO, to integrate a pure striking art (such as boxing) and a pure grappling art (such as BJJ), something are missing. One of the missing elements is the "pull" after the "punch". Of course with boxing gloves, it's hard to pull after punch.

 

[Hanzou]

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Depends on which wing chun you are talking about/

There is a WC system that covers grappling as extensively as Bjj (or a similar grappling system)?

BTW, a Bjj exponent who cross trains in Wing Chun (or any striking system) is going to have an advantage over someone who has only trained in Bjj.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

BTW, a Bjj exponent who cross trains in Wing Chun (or any striking system) is going to have an advantage over someone who has only trained in Bjj.

The WC "double Tan Shou" can be used as zombie's arms. When your opponent extends both of his arms, it's pretty difficult to punch on his head. When you punch, your zombie opponent only need to extend his

- left arm between your right arm and your head.
- right arm between your left arm and your head.

He can establish a successful clinch. As far as I know, this strategy does not exist in boxing.