Chambering the fist like in the forms is unrealistic

[Martial D]

If you

- don't twist your body, it wont.
- twist your body, it will.

Of course you don't need to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist to get the maximum extension.

Back to the waist is just to remind "body twisting".

Punch with body twist - punching arm and body form a 180 degree straight line.

Punch without body twist - punching arm and body form a 90 degree angle.

Ya, I've always thought that chambering motion made more sense as a pull than a pose.

And yes, side on is more reach than square, with shades of grey in between. You can still keep that back hand in a useful position regardless of what angle you're on tho.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No..it does not teach you how to punch. If your habit is to keep your arm out of your opponents way you have probably never stood in front of anyone that hits back.

It's hilarious watching these sorts in challenge matches, holding their traditional stance just long enough to get hit and get their hands up(enter sloppy kickboxing)

The motion of pulling back to chamber probably simulated an arm drag or similar grappling maneuver, which was just forgotten by generations of kata doers that no longer applied it to anything. At least it makes some sense in that context.

It does teach how to punch. It doesn't teach how to defend. Those are separate things (though they can be taught together).

You seem to either not understand or to ignore the mechanics being taught via exaggeration. Exaggerated movement exercises are, IMO, common in traditional Japanese training exercises. They work well in some ways, though they have some inherent limitations.

Essentially, the punch I learned via this kind of chamber-and-punch drill is the same mechanically as the punch I use in sparring, where I can't recall ever doing a full chamber. I find students who struggle with punching (and that's about half of them, IMO) give a better punch early with these types of exercises. And even those who learn quickly often show their punching flaws faster in these exercises - though that latter may simply be me being better at spotting those flaws in these drills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You'll get more power just throwing from the shoulder. You don't need to have your hand at your hips to engage your hips, and the only time distance adds power is if it's a swing, like a haymaker or an overhand. The rest of the time it just teaches you to arm punch.

You seem to be confusing "can" with "must". It is possible to teach these principles with a chamber-and-punch start. It is not necessary to use that to teach them. There are other methods that seem to also work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ya, my whole issue here is with the TMA style hip or below the shoulder fist chamber. 'chambering' to the guard position is a whole different thing.

As for power, it shouldn't come from the arm, but the driving foot, hip rotation, and elbow/shoulder drive. You can generate tremendous punching power with very short travel distance. Extra distance is just extra time to be countered.

The point several of us are making is that the deep chamber (hip or ribs) is really just an exaggeration of pulling back in the guard position. Same mechanics.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ya, I've always thought that chambering motion made more sense as a pull than a pose.

What do you mean "as a pose"? It shouldn't be a posed position, except in drills (checking form, for instance).

 

[Martial D]

It does teach how to punch. It doesn't teach how to defend. Those are separate things (though they can be taught together).

You seem to either not understand or to ignore the mechanics being taught via exaggeration. Exaggerated movement exercises are, IMO, common in traditional Japanese training exercises. They work well in some ways, though they have some inherent limitations.

Essentially, the punch I learned via this kind of chamber-and-punch drill is the same mechanically as the punch I use in sparring, where I can't recall ever doing a full chamber. I find students who struggle with punching (and that's about half of them, IMO) give a better punch early with these types of exercises. And even those who learn quickly often show their punching flaws faster in these exercises - though that latter may simply be me being better at spotting those flaws in these drills.

Doing that might teach you to do tip tap TMA arm punches, I guess.

Anyway, you are arguing against things nobody said. The whole thread is about keeping your hand in chamber for real, not 'exagerated drilling'

 

[Martial D]

You seem to be confusing "can" with "must". It is possible to teach these principles with a chamber-and-punch start. It is not necessary to use that to teach them. There are other methods that seem to also work.

Actually doing that only teaches bad habits. Why do you want a throw and retract from the hip, with maximum arm travel and minimum body engagement, trained into your muscle memory?

 

[jobo]

LOL

You get silly sometimes.

i'm trying to have a serious discussion, but your declining to give any evidence for your claim, as your fond of saying ;'' anecdotes are a dime a dozen '

to be clear I'm not saying that body movement does not enhance punching power, coz it does. I'm saying that the majority of a punches power comes from your arm/shoulder movement. at least mine does. maybe if you train differently it doesnt apply. but as you wont provieded a rational for your view its difficult to say.



my rational, is i can '' chamber punch' a 100lb dumbell up with no difficulty, that's a significant amount of energy to transfer into someone, the last time a threw such a punch in anger, i was stepping backwards to get the correct range and it was still hard enough to snap his head back and split his eye open. if i had a stable position im reasonable confident that it would have knocked him over.

that clearly means that my ''arm punches'' are far from ineffective. maybe if you invested some time in developing your arm strength then you may have a similar view

 

[Martial D]

i'm trying to have a serious discussion, but your declining to give any evidence for your claim, as your fond of saying ;'' anecdotes are a dime a dozen '

to be clear I'm not saying that body movement does not enhance punching power, coz it does. I'm saying that the majority of a punches power comes from your arm/shoulder movement. at least mine does. maybe if you train differently it doesnt apply. but as you wont provieded a rational for your view its difficult to say.



my rational, is i can '' chamber punch' a 100lb dumbell up with no difficulty, that's a significant amount of energy to transfer into someone, the last time a threw such a punch in anger, i was stepping backwards to get the correct range and it was still hard enough to snap his head back and split his eye open. if i had a stable position im reasonable confident that it would have knocked him over.

that clearly means that my ''arm punches'' are far from ineffective. maybe if you invested some time in developing your arm strength then you may have a similar view

Yes, you are basically arguing for flat Earth at this point.

If you want to believe in your arm punching, go right ahead. There is no convincing you of anything.

 

[jobo]

Yes, you are basically arguing for flat Earth at this point.

If you want to believe in your arm punching, go right ahead. There is no convincing you of anything.

your talking nonsense and refusing to back it up, its rather you thats follows the flat earth debating style

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually doing that only teaches bad habits. Why do you want a throw and retract from the hip, with maximum arm travel and minimum body engagement, trained into your muscle memory?

If it’s done right, with appropriate drills, I’ve never seen those habits manifest in sparring beyond the beginner.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Doing that might teach you to do tip tap TMA arm punches, I guess.

Anyway, you are arguing against things nobody said. The whole thread is about keeping your hand in chamber for real, not 'exagerated drilling'

It does quite the opposite. It teaches to use the body and legs in the punch. Failing to use them shows up pretty obviously.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If it’s done right, with appropriate drills, I’ve never seen those habits manifest in sparring beyond the beginner.

I think the chamber punch is misunderstood when it comes to application. Sort of like horse stance and bow stance. For some reason people expect it to look just like it those in the focused punching drills. They see a fight where the person moves around with the fist chambered. They don't think about or see it as a quick transition or a temporary placement of the hand, or the loading of a punch

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you practice pulling your hand back beyond your head in forms or katas? Why not?

We do. It is absolutely fundamental to how we practice punching, and developing power from the feet and legs to drive rotation in the torso.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the chamber punch is misunderstood when it comes to application. Sort of like horse stance and bow stance. For some reason people expect it to look just like it those in the focused punching drills. They see a fight where the person moves around with the fist chambered. They don't think about or see it as a quick transition or a temporary placement of the hand, or the loading of a punch

I think for a lot of people who don’t see it or don’t think about it, not seeing it is deliberate.

 

[Buka]

What I don't understand, which, granted, is a LOT, but....

I've trained in a whole lot of dojos and a whole lot of styles. Both traditional, non traditional, boxing blah blah blah.

In every single one of them, TMA included, every one of them teaches you to punch with your whole body. Every single one.

I've been searching my memory for the last couple days trying to remember even one that didn't teach to punch with your whole body, chambered hand or not. Can't recall even one instance of this. Not a one.

 

[Flying Crane]

What I don't understand, which, granted, is a LOT, but....

I've trained in a whole lot of dojos and a whole lot of styles. Both traditional, non traditional, boxing blah blah blah.

In every single one of them, TMA included, every one of them teaches you to punch with your whole body. Every single one.

I've been searching my memory for the last couple days trying to remember even one that didn't teach to punch with your whole body, chambered hand or not. Can't recall even one instance of this. Not a one.

I agree. I believe different systems go about that training in different ways, and these differences in training methodologies are a big part of what distinguishes one system from another. But the end goal is the same.

I also believe that some schools do a very poor job of it, to the point where I suspect the instructor does not understand it, never learned it. When that happens, the concept can become lost for all those who are downstream in that lineage.

But I agree with you, I believe that in any school doing a good job of teaching, some form of full-body engagement is part of the methods. Or at least should be.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The point several of us are making is that the deep chamber (hip or ribs) is really just an exaggeration of pulling back in the guard position. Same mechanics.

It can be an arm control - block with left arm, wrap, pull, punch with right arm.

Boxers don't pull non-punching hand back to the waist because they don't pull after their punch.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What I don't understand, which, granted, is a LOT, but....

I've trained in a whole lot of dojos and a whole lot of styles. Both traditional, non traditional, boxing blah blah blah.

In every single one of them, TMA included, every one of them teaches you to punch with your whole body. Every single one.

I've been searching my memory for the last couple days trying to remember even one that didn't teach to punch with your whole body, chambered hand or not. Can't recall even one instance of this. Not a one.

The only thing that I can think of is a stiff arm in football doesn't use the bodies. It's not a martial art, but it shows an instance where you don't need to use your whole body while running away. Outside of that, the tsuki in sumo I sometimes see without any body behind it, but I don't think that's the norm there.

 

[Martial D]

It does quite the opposite. It teaches to use the body and legs in the punch. Failing to use them shows up pretty obviously.

Yet, kiah! Style punching has been proven to be significantly weaker than boxing style punches. Why do you suppose that is? Different mechanics, perhaps?