Chambering the fist like in the forms is unrealistic

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,202
Reaction score
5,200
It’s early right now, so maybe it’s just me, but I can’t figure out what you mean. Can you elaborate?

Whenever you need strength your arms need to be close to your body because the structure is better.

So while you gain velocity by stretching you are not as solid. And you are not as strong.

As I mentioned it is precisely what people do wrong when they wind up and wing massive body shots.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
The speed of the fist should be greater with rotation added. The time from start to finish, of course, can be longer (slower), since you have to move more mass.

It shouldn't be longer if all motion happens at the same time. Which it should in my opinion. At the same time......like a bomb going off. Not a sizzling warm up of the fuse being lit, but the actual explosion itself.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
One of the fondest memories was a point match I watched at a tournament between my sparring partner, Billy Blanks, and my friend Andre Tippett. Andre, a NFL Hall of Fame linebacker, was six three and about 230. But football wasn't his main physical activity, Karate was, he had been training since he was a child. Billy was six feet and around two hundred at the time.

They had what I always referred to as the best F - You fight I ever saw. They faced off, in loose tournament style stances, that back hand sort of chambered, but not quite.....and when the ref said go they would just charge at each other. Both of them were extremely fast and could close distance as quick as anybody I've seen. And each time they just slammed each other in the chest at the same time, hard as they could, like a gunshot. Either could have done something else and scored, but, nope, they were in some sort of Karate war that day. I wasn't in the stands, I was on the floor right in front of them. I had won lightweight that day, and would be fighting whichever of the two won the heavyweight division. Lucky me.

As fast as they were, they would each slam the other at the same time, like head butting rams. The refs would all call "clash" and immediately say go again. And they did it again, and again, and again, and harder and harder and harder. Honest to God, it was the craziest Karate thing I've ever seen, the stands were going absolutely nuts.

At the time, Andre was playing Linebacker for the Patriots in the NFL. Unbeknownst to him, some New England Patriots big shots had come to watch him in this tournament, which Andre had told them was just a game of tag. They almost had heart attacks watching this match of two guys who appeared to be trying to kill each other. The coaches called him into their offices the following Monday and informed him he couldn't be doing any more of that karate stuff while was he was still on contract.

But, man, what a match. You don't want either one of them throwing no chambered reverse punch into your body. Not even to your chest. It is not conducive to healthy living.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,617
Reaction score
3,041
It shouldn't be longer if all motion happens at the same time. Which it should in my opinion. At the same time......like a bomb going off. Not a sizzling warm up of the fuse being lit, but the actual explosion itself.
This is a good observation. So many times we single out a technique and look at that technique without factoring "everything else" that is being used with that technique.

Below is an example of what you just stated. 3 things going on all at once.
  1. Blocking /redirecting / moving opponent's right and out of the way. (how ever you see it my left hand hooking my sparring partner's right arm)
  2. Stepping and advancing at the same time. Which is also used to help generate power and speed as well as helps to close the distance. (stepped after the kick )
  3. Waist twisting to helping generate power and by twisting the waist I can use it to help speed up the punch, This way my arm isn't trying to do all of the work
  4. Chambered fist. Punch is loaded and ready to fire. No need to draw it back to load it up. I just have to send it forward.
upload_2019-11-4_22-54-58-png.22553


Watching the video below. How long does it actually take me to launch the chambered punch. The punch is launched before my heel hits the flow. Keep in mind this is not full speed, full power sparring. So how long would it take for someone faster than me to load (chamber) and fire the punch?
I tried to count and it seems that it took me less than a second. I threw a total of for 4 strikes. I pressed my computer's stopwatch, then clicked the video and stopped the watch when the chambered punch landed. I got a little over 2 seconds. I don't know how accurate that is, but that puts 4 strikes in a little more than 2 seconds. Maybe someone can get an more accurate time. So what are we really looking at when we say that a punch is slow or that a punch is going to be slow? And even if that punch is slower than a jab. Is it so slow that it prevents you from being able to land it.

Now would I have started out with a chambered thrust punch as the first punch, I can't think of any scenario in which I would. For me it's not that type of punch. It's not the punch that one uses as a jab. It's the punch that one would use in a combination attack, like a 1-2-3 in boxing. 2 quick punches one power punch.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,617
Reaction score
3,041
You don't want either one of them throwing no chambered reverse punch into your body. Not even to your chest. It is not conducive to healthy living.
lol I don't want anyone doing this to me, I don't care who it is. lol.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
What works for me, by choice mind you....

...for the sake of discussion, let's say I'm throwing a right cross. All power that I generate starts within my core. I have an imaginary axis running vertically through the top of my head, out my backside. It rotates extremely tight on it's center. One side is exploding backwards on the axis, the other side exploding forward on the axis. It is my fast twitch, drive shaft.

While that' s happening, literally at the same time, my rear foot is pivoting with all my leg/back/hip power generating from the ground.
While that's happening, literally at the same time, my shoulder is marrying my chin. My eyes are lasered on a point. Where that point is depends on what I'm trying to do. Sometimes I'm looking at you right in the eye. Sometimes, I'm looking at your feet. It depends.

It all happens at once. How long it takes is how long it takes me to twitch my core. Working on it for decades makes it fairly quick. I use several imaginary axis....(what is the plural of axis? I can never remember) throughout my body, especially when I punch. Don't really think about it except for when teaching. When training or fighting it's kind of like breathing, it just happens.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,099
Reaction score
2,494
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Why would body rotation slow down your arm and shoulder muscles?

If you accelerate your arm INTO a rotation of the body, shouldn't the rotation speed add to the total speed?
You have right leg forward.

1. You move your back left leg to your right and behind your right leg (stealing step).
2. Your footwork pull your body, and your body start to rotate.
3. Your body rotation pull your arm, and finish a right hook punch.

There is a delay between your start to move your left leg and your right hook land on your opponent's head. If you skip 1 and 2, your hook will be faster but with less power.

This is why I believe power and speed are 2 extremes. If you want maximum

- power, you won't have maximum speed (the full power generation take more time).
- speed. you won't have maximum power (you don't have full compressing and full releasing).
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,617
Reaction score
3,041
What works for me, by choice mind you....

...for the sake of discussion, let's say I'm throwing a right cross. All power that I generate starts within my core. I have an imaginary axis running vertically through the top of my head, out my backside. It rotates extremely tight on it's center. One side is exploding backwards on the axis, the other side exploding forward on the axis. It is my fast twitch, drive shaft.

While that' s happening, literally at the same time, my rear foot is pivoting with all my leg/back/hip power generating from the ground.
While that's happening, literally at the same time, my shoulder is marrying my chin. My eyes are lasered on a point. Where that point is depends on what I'm trying to do. Sometimes I'm looking at you right in the eye. Sometimes, I'm looking at your feet. It depends.

It all happens at once. How long it takes is how long it takes me to twitch my core. Working on it for decades makes it fairly quick. I use several imaginary axis....(what is the plural of axis? I can never remember) throughout my body, especially when I punch. Don't really think about it except for when teaching. When training or fighting it's kind of like breathing, it just happens.
All of what you stated is true for me as well. Wit the exception that I don't use a pivot, but even though that's different the concept is the same. The things that you train with dedication eventually becomes like breathing, Your brain already knows those calculations so it can just spit it out. But this wasn't always the case at least for me. Training made it so because the skill set and abilities that I have now i didn't have as a beginner.

Same as you there's a lot that I do that is like breathing. One day someone asked how I do my sweeps. I literally had to think and take note of how I was doing my sweeps so I could answer the question. For me, I would have had a better answer when I was learning the sweep than while I already know it. Sometimes I leave things out because it happens "naturally"
 

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
231
Location
Kingwood Texas
Not sure what you mean about principal vs application.. Other systems chamber the fist as well.

Chambered punch. No need to for Tyson to deal with the opponents right hand here.

View attachment 22564

Chambered fist again. Guy on the left could not twist his body in this manner had he not chambered the fist.
images


Both fighters are chambered their right arm here. One got KO'd
View attachment 22565

Chambered punch here.
View attachment 22566

Sugar Ray Leonard Clambering his punches. When left fist strikes right arm chambers, to load the punch for when the left hand returns.

Ali chambered his punches too
I like your videos.
hands cambered ready to punch vs hands up protecting their head.
I was at a school watching a new girl she was a black belt with very fast hands and feet.
The teacher was telling her put up hands ,that she was not protecting her head.
She did as the teacher said and her hand speed slowed down.
Her arms muscles were not lose and her punches had no snap.
if they can punch or kick you faster than you can move or block you are not going to win that fight.
I put my hands up when I am hurt, trying to escape, not when I am trying to win.
Your videos show that well.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,099
Reaction score
2,494
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I put my hands up when I am hurt, trying to escape, not when I am trying to win.
Agree with you 100% there.

People always say to put up your hands. This make no sense if we don't consider the distance.

If I'm

- 20 feet away from you, I'll be safe even if I lay down on the ground.
- 10 feet away from you, I'll be safe even if I drop both hands next to my knee.
- 6 feet away from you, the best position for my hands will be on my chest level with 1 hand in the front and 1 hand in the back. I may need to deal with your kick first.
- 4 feet away from you, the best position for my hands will be net to your face.

To use your arms to protect your head is too conservative way of thinking. It's better for your opponent to raise his arms to protect his head instead. The best defense is not to give your opponent enough space for his power generation and speed generation. In order to achieve that, you will need to jam the space with your extended arms - such as a rhino guard.
 
Last edited:

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,202
Reaction score
5,200
I like your videos.
hands cambered ready to punch vs hands up protecting their head.
I was at a school watching a new girl she was a black belt with very fast hands and feet.
The teacher was telling her put up hands ,that she was not protecting her head.
She did as the teacher said and her hand speed slowed down.
Her arms muscles were not lose and her punches had no snap.
if they can punch or kick you faster than you can move or block you are not going to win that fight.
I put my hands up when I am hurt, trying to escape, not when I am trying to win.
Your videos show that well.

Worst time to get lazy is when you are winning. You walk in to that one shot and you could be over.

 

jobo

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
9,684
Reaction score
1,465
Location
Manchester UK
I would have said footwork and body movement generate power more than arm movement.


And is generally the reason nobody can body punch well. Because they try to fling this huge arm and it just doesn't work. Rather than walk into to a good position to throw.


reaching with your hands and not your feet is a common mistake. It is a big one in grappling as well.
people keep saying that and it seems to be more a decleration of faith than a fact.

if we are talking about boxing then if true some one will have tested the hypothersis and published data on it. So it would be easy to prove, but thus far no proof is forth comming.

Im prepared to admit the possibility that this may vary considerably with body weight. It seem reasonable that someone who weights 300 lb may exceed his punching power by transferring that considerable weight into his punch and someone say 150lb may be more dependent on arm power. But as no data is being made available we may never know ?
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Grandmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
9,617
Reaction score
3,041
I would have said footwork and body movement generate power more than arm movement.

And is generally the reason nobody can body punch well. Because they try to fling this huge arm and it just doesn't work. Rather than walk into to a good position to throw.


reaching with your hands and not your feet is a common mistake. It is a big one in grappling as well.
Moving the feet allows the person to retain the optimum structure for the punch. if a hook is most powerful at 3 feet away the it's possible to maintain this effective range by moving the. reaching pulls us out of our most effective structure and the punch won't be as powerful.

This is something that's easy to verify. Go up to a punching bag and increase the distance. First reach to try to hit the bag and then use the feet to close the distance. There will be significant differences in power and balance that can be felt.

I think of it like a baseball swing. Do you stand and swing or do you step into the swing? golf swings work in a similar way but with both feet planted. But you'll often see that front knee bend as if they are mini stepping into the swing.
 
Last edited:

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,184
Reaction score
952
It shouldn't be longer if all motion happens at the same time. Which it should in my opinion. At the same time......like a bomb going off. Not a sizzling warm up of the fuse being lit, but the actual explosion itself.
This guy gets it
 

Latest Discussions

Top