Certification and double take

[terryl965]

When you first walk into some one school do you look for certificates or at the students? Also what is your opinion about non Kukkiwn certificates and would you train with another Master that was not offering nothing but a house belt?
Terry

 

[Sapper6]

i am assuming you are referring to TKD affilliations? i don't train in TKD so i cannot answer your question regarding the kukkiwon. however, on a grander scale, it really shouldn't matter who certifies you, IHMO. there's nothing wrong with just having a "house belt" as you call it. to say that a person's rank means more just because it was granted by a large association is ignorant. associations are about money and that is not why i train. i've never been certified through any martial art associations in my 13 years of studying the martial arts, and i certainly don't feel like less of a martial artist because of it.

no offense taken by your post Terry. i just don't believe in associations and there necessity in the martial arts. pay any association enough money, and you can have any belt you desire. for now, i'll just stick with my house belt.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would probably be more likely to avoid a school that was part of a larger organization, and awarded rank as such. I would prefer to train with the smaller school, with a teacher who does not kow-tow to the big organizations.

I think this actually says a lot about a teacher. To me, it says that he is willing to stand on his own two feet and trust in himself and the training and knowledge that he has received, and he doesn't need a parent organization to legitimize what he is teaching.

 

[Ceicei]

I look at the instructors and see how they teach and interact with their students. I also look at the students and see how they move.

Certificates are nice, but they're not my primary purpose in checking over a dojo. If they are hung on the wall within viewing access, I may look to see what these certificates say.

Whether the belts are awarded by the larger organization or as house belts doesn't matter to me. It is the quality of the instruction.

- Ceicei

 

[bydand]

Personally I look at students first. Not only for their movement, but also for their expressions. I don't think I would want to train at a place that may have excellent Movement and all kinds of certifications if the students that are there don't appear to be enjoying themselves. I DO NOT mean a laughing gigglefest or a something that sounds like a night out at a comedy club, but smiles all around and a general "feeling" of family and security with the other students. Sure we all have our off nights, but I have found that those of us who may have had a long trying day either at home or at work tend to loosen up and relax as the training goes on. I know there are days after 12 or 13 hours at work I am wearing a long face and have little energy when class starts, but shortly into training I've a smile plastered on my face and plenty of "Pep in my step." That comes from the instructor and the class, not a piece of paper in a frame on the wall.

Certificates are nice, and it is one way of gauging if the instructor is continuing his own training, but certificates don't teach the classes and don't have the interaction with the students.

That is my 2 cents worth (actually, more like a half-dollar, but you asked.) LOL

 

[Carol]

I'm going to break rank here and say the certifications* with an asterisk.

I've been at a couple of schools schools outside of my own recently. Before walking in the door I learned who the instructor was, what their rank is, if they are or are not associated with some sort of organization and what it meant for me. After I learn that, I stop by the school.

 

[Grenadier]

For the most part, I am more concerned with the instructors and their students. If both sets of people are good, then I know that their system is a good one, and deserves respect, even if it's an "outside" system. The proof of one's abilities is in them, and not a piece of paper.

I'll look at the certificates, to see if there are any that I recognize. Also, just for my own curiousity, I'll see if someone has a WKF ranking, etc.

It certainly doesn't hurt to have those certificates, if they came from a legit organization.

Of course, if I see that someone has a certificate saying that they hold a black belt in something such as "Vale Tudo," and signed by Radford D's pen name, then I'll take it as a piece of humor. :rofl:

 

[Paul B]

I am going to say that first I look at the teacher's style of teaching. How they explain the details of technique and how they adjust what they are teaching to the different needs of the students.

If I can't identify with and benefit from a person's teaching style then what kind of wallpaper they have is the least of my worries.

 

[terryl965]

i am assuming you are referring to TKD affilliations? i don't train in TKD so i cannot answer your question regarding the kukkiwon. however, on a grander scale, it really shouldn't matter who certifies you, IHMO. there's nothing wrong with just having a "house belt" as you call it. to say that a person's rank means more just because it was granted by a large association is ignorant. associations are about money and that is not why i train. i've never been certified through any martial art associations in my 13 years of studying the martial arts, and i certainly don't feel like less of a martial artist because of it.

no offense taken by your post Terry. i just don't believe in associations and there necessity in the martial arts. pay any association enough money, and you can have any belt you desire. for now, i'll just stick with my house belt.

Sapper my friend no offense taken I love hoesty and I agree with your post.
Terry

 

[KOROHO]

I used to travel a lot with work and was always looking for a palce to train.
Before even walking into a school, is possible, would look at the teacher and students. I would look for a number of red flags - little kids wearing black belts, too young instructors, instructors who were just counting off as techniques were done without correction, etc. I would watch how the teacher moves and see if the students move the way he does or are they all over the place. If I got a sense that it was a good martial arts school and there was good instruction, noting else (even the style) would matter. If later on I found out that even though the teacher was good, if he lied about credentials, I would have a problem with the dishonesty.

Whether or not the school needs to be tied to a large organization depends on what you want. I'd rather train with a top notch, independent than a second rate teacher in a big organization. Again, I would be more concerned with getting the best martial arts training that is available regardless of style. That is really how I got started in Aikido. The best martial arts teacher in town was teaching Aikido, so I did that.

The support of an organization is good for junior level teachers, but as long as someone is legitimately of sufficient rank, there is no real need for the organization. Unless of course you are talking about koryu arts where lineage and tradition is such a large part of it.

 

[gixxershane]

i chose the school that im at now, because of the instruction.. Our head instructor is picky, in a really good way.. making sure that the basics are built properly, and then built upon each class... she brings out the best in each student..

we are a part of an orginization..so for high level test we are tested in front of a panel of high ranking black belts.. that brings a lot of validation to my rank for me.. i would have no problem getting a "hous belt" from a good instructor either... it is just that my bb paper work has one 8th black signiture, one 6th, and (3) 5th...

that is my .02 dollars worth

 

[Rich Parsons]

When you first walk into some one school do you look for certificates or at the students? Also what is your opinion about non Kukkiwn certificates and would you train with another Master that was not offering nothing but a house belt?
Terry

As one art I study and teach his no Certifications, All I can offer is my knowledge and insight. One may gather this by watching me teach or by watching a student move or learn.

In the other art I study and teach, I was certified and ranked under and by the Late GM. My Senior now continues with this, and we do not belong to any larger organizations and he signs off on any rank in that art. (* No disrespect to any organization *) Some may not accept that rank. Some may not believe it or think it is valid.

Once again all I can do is offer to show them what I have and let them decide for themselves.


Now for those who are interested in Olympic style arts then having a cert for said art from the right organization will help you in getting in the door for the chance to try out for a team. But even there is still depends upon what you can do and demonstrate.

 

[MJS]

When you first walk into some one school do you look for certificates or at the students? Also what is your opinion about non Kukkiwn certificates and would you train with another Master that was not offering nothing but a house belt?
Terry

I'd have to say that I look more at the students, the instructor and how the class is being run. As I've said in other posts, I'm more interested in the quality of teaching of the instructor, how well he performs the material, how well he understands the material and the overall knowledge of the system. Can he effectively make the material work? This, IMO, is more important than how many certificates he has hanging on the walls or the stripes on his belt.

Mike

 

[pstarr]

I would look at the students to observe their general level of prowess - then to the instructor to see how he interrelates with them and if he is effective in trasmitting knowledge.

 

[Dark]

Kinda wonder they ever made do without belts and rank cerificates I'm more interest in the instructor then the wall paper of his/her office.

 

[Don Roley]

Excuse me if I break with the pack and cause a little trouble.

I would like to start my troublemaking off by asking who here wants to say they are experts in anything. Have you experienced so many violent assaults that you can make a judgement about how they go? Have you trained in Japan for decades in kenjutsu?

Ok, I am being a bit cynical, but I hope I make the point that most people that walk into a dojo or dojoang just do not know what to look for. Bob Hubbard had a great quote that most people search for martial arts like they search for a toaster- the one that has the most chrome and the lowest price.

I honestly do not think I know enough to make judgements about the teacher I would train with. I have seen things that seem silly here in Japan, only to be shown that it was the only way to do leathal techniques without killing your partner. I have stayed with a friend who is a respected Silat teacher as he and other Silat stylists laughed at a tape by someone claiming to teach it. I could not tell if the movements were along the lines of the formal but lethal stuff I saw in Japan or just plain stupid.

Hey, I have seen tapes by folks that claim to teach the Koga ryu ninjutsu- a style I know is dead. The stuff they do makes me laugh based on what I have learned of street attacks as well as what I see in Japan. But some of them attract a lot of students.

So maybe house black belts are good. Marc MacYoung a freind of mine issues things like that. But there should be more than just that. Is the person claiming to be part of a respected orginization but really belongs to one that will only look at his checking balance? If someone takes the name of an art that orginated in another country but has no ties to it, then there is no way I would train with them. Just the idea that someone would think they know enough to stop their training with those that have been training longer would set off alarms with me. And the idea that they would cling to the old title instead of coming up with something they themselves are responsible for like "Defensive Tactics" but not continuing their training in the art whose name they use would set off even bigger red flags.

Hey, certificates may mean nothing. But if you claim to be teaching Japanese swprdsmanship, there has to be some sort of link.

 

[terryl965]

Excuse me if I break with the pack and cause a little trouble.

I would like to start my troublemaking off by asking who here wants to say they are experts in anything. Have you experienced so many violent assaults that you can make a judgement about how they go? Have you trained in Japan for decades in kenjutsu?

Ok, I am being a bit cynical, but I hope I make the point that most people that walk into a dojo or dojoang just do not know what to look for. Bob Hubbard had a great quote that most people search for martial arts like they search for a toaster- the one that has the most chrome and the lowest price.

I honestly do not think I know enough to make judgements about the teacher I would train with. I have seen things that seem silly here in Japan, only to be shown that it was the only way to do leathal techniques without killing your partner. I have stayed with a friend who is a respected Silat teacher as he and other Silat stylists laughed at a tape by someone claiming to teach it. I could not tell if the movements were along the lines of the formal but lethal stuff I saw in Japan or just plain stupid.

Hey, I have seen tapes by folks that claim to teach the Koga ryu ninjutsu- a style I know is dead. The stuff they do makes me laugh based on what I have learned of street attacks as well as what I see in Japan. But some of them attract a lot of students.

So maybe house black belts are good. Marc MacYoung a freind of mine issues things like that. But there should be more than just that. Is the person claiming to be part of a respected orginization but really belongs to one that will only look at his checking balance? If someone takes the name of an art that orginated in another country but has no ties to it, then there is no way I would train with them. Just the idea that someone would think they know enough to stop their training with those that have been training longer would set off alarms with me. And the idea that they would cling to the old title instead of coming up with something they themselves are responsible for like "Defensive Tactics" but not continuing their training in the art whose name they use would set off even bigger red flags.

Hey, certificates may mean nothing. But if you claim to be teaching Japanese swprdsmanship, there has to be some sort of link.

Don I understand your point but here is another one for ya! If people had to go back to the old countrys for training than there would be no Arts here in the state, Imyself ve trained oversea's in both my art and you can find a respectable techer htates i you are willing to look n the little cracks in the wall.
just my opinio.
Terry

 

[Don Roley]

Don I understand your point but here is another one for ya! If people had to go back to the old countrys for training than there would be no Arts here in the state, Imyself ve trained oversea's in both my art and you can find a respectable techer htates i you are willing to look n the little cracks in the wall.
just my opinio.
Terry

And I understand where you are coming from. But I feel that if an art claims to be Japanese, then there should be a link to Japan. If they use a Japanese name (or Chinese, etc) and yet the teacher can't show proof of even a teacher, then they seem to be decieving the public.

I put a lot of importance on trust with a teacher. I do not think anyone really has enough experince with real street violence to build a statistical model. So everyone is just doing the best they can. If they are part of a small orginization or a large orginization, it really does not matter as long as that orginization is honest and not just a rubber stamp for members. And in terms of honesty, I think a willingness to contiue training and learning instead of setting yourself up as a teacher is important. I mentioned Marc MacYoung. Even though he does not rely on the certificates of others (in fact I know he turned down a offer to be named soke) he still trains with a guy I know as often as he can.

I do not trust my ability to judge a good street technique from a bad one as some people seem to be saying. But I think I can determine an honest outlook and intention. That is what I look for, and certificates are just one part of that search.

I hope I am making sense. A full day of teaching 3rd grade elementary, expermenting with Ouzo and a lack of sleep is a taking a toll on me.

 

[MJS]

Excuse me if I break with the pack and cause a little trouble.

I would like to start my troublemaking off by asking who here wants to say they are experts in anything. Have you experienced so many violent assaults that you can make a judgement about how they go? Have you trained in Japan for decades in kenjutsu?

I for one, am far from an expert. I've never claimed to be and I never will. I'm just a continuing student on a long journey.

Ok, I am being a bit cynical, but I hope I make the point that most people that walk into a dojo or dojoang just do not know what to look for. Bob Hubbard had a great quote that most people search for martial arts like they search for a toaster- the one that has the most chrome and the lowest price.

Yes, thats correct Don. Perhaps, I should clarify at least where I was coming from. I was speaking from a standpoint as to where I am now. When I first decided to start training, I picked the place that was closest to where I lived at the time. Didn't really do any research, just went, signed up and began to train. I was a newbie to the arts, so of course, I didn't really know what to look for. After putting in quite a bit of training time, having had the chance to meet many people, some of which became close friends and workout partners, I began to get a feel as to what to look for in a school. I'm certainly not saying that I want to train under a fake, fraud or whatever else we can call them, but I'll put it like this. If I walked into the office and saw 30 pictures on the wall with the instructor standing next to Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Gene LaBell, Rickson or any other Gracie, Remy Presas, etc., etc., etc. I may have been impressed then, but now I realize that all of that really means nothing. I mean, I'm sure you've seen or heard of countless people heading to Japan during the Ninjutsu boom, standing in line waiting for a picture with Hatsumi, and then running back to the states, claiming to be his personal student.

Am I an expert in the art of fraud detecting? LOL, not at all, but I feel that I would be able to look at a school or instructor and decide if what they're offering will suit me and my needs. I have no problem shelling out money to train Don, but I for one, don't want to give my money to a fake. As you know, there are many resources out there that would aid in deciding if someone was as legit as they claim. When I'm in the market to buy a new car, I don't drive to the first dealership I come across, run in and say, "See that black car out there. I'm buying it right now! Heres the money, lets do the paperwork and get the ball rolling!" Does the car meet my needs? Does it have all the 'toys' that I'm looking for? How does it drive? Whats the gas mileage? Maybe I can drive to the next (insert favorite model car) dealership and see if they have a better deal.

Hey, certificates may mean nothing. But if you claim to be teaching Japanese swprdsmanship, there has to be some sort of link.

Agreed. But just because they have certs. hanging on the wall, doesnt mean they've got the skill to back it. Certificates are a dime a dozen..just like a Black Belt. All the more reason to do the homework and make sure the money we're giving is worth it.

Mike

 

[IcemanSK]

I for one, am far from an expert. I've never claimed to be and I never will. I'm just a continuing student on a long journey.



Yes, thats correct Don. Perhaps, I should clarify at least where I was coming from. I was speaking from a standpoint as to where I am now. When I first decided to start training, I picked the place that was closest to where I lived at the time. Didn't really do any research, just went, signed up and began to train. I was a newbie to the arts, so of course, I didn't really know what to look for. After putting in quite a bit of training time, having had the chance to meet many people, some of which became close friends and workout partners, I began to get a feel as to what to look for in a school. I'm certainly not saying that I want to train under a fake, fraud or whatever else we can call them, but I'll put it like this. If I walked into the office and saw 30 pictures on the wall with the instructor standing next to Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Gene LaBell, Rickson or any other Gracie, Remy Presas, etc., etc., etc. I may have been impressed then, but now I realize that all of that really means nothing. I mean, I'm sure you've seen or heard of countless people heading to Japan during the Ninjutsu boom, standing in line waiting for a picture with Hatsumi, and then running back to the states, claiming to be his personal student.

Am I an expert in the art of fraud detecting? LOL, not at all, but I feel that I would be able to look at a school or instructor and decide if what they're offering will suit me and my needs. I have no problem shelling out money to train Don, but I for one, don't want to give my money to a fake. As you know, there are many resources out there that would aid in deciding if someone was as legit as they claim. When I'm in the market to buy a new car, I don't drive to the first dealership I come across, run in and say, "See that black car out there. I'm buying it right now! Heres the money, lets do the paperwork and get the ball rolling!" Does the car meet my needs? Does it have all the 'toys' that I'm looking for? How does it drive? Whats the gas mileage? Maybe I can drive to the next (insert favorite model car) dealership and see if they have a better deal.




Agreed. But just because they have certs. hanging on the wall, doesnt mean they've got the skill to back it. Certificates are a dime a dozen..just like a Black Belt. All the more reason to do the homework and make sure the money we're giving is worth it.

Mike

Certificates (even real ones) certainly aren't insurance against fraud, that's for sure. But I think it's a step in the right direction. And certainly pictures of the instructor with famous MA-ists means even less than nothing....Any more than eating at a restaraunt (sp?) that has pictures of famous people means that the food is any good. I'd recommend anyone looking into a school or an art ask as many people as possible about the instructor, school & art before choosing a school.

In regards to Terry's orginal question...Having been in MA for a long time, TKD certs are important (for me) when I look at a TKD School. KKW or ITF doesn't matter as much to me as that they've trained with reputable folks. If I were switching to an art I knew little about (say, judo) I'd talk to folks that knew judo about that school & instructor.