Certification advice requested

[Brad Dunne]

I see your reasoning with the comparison to a college degree but with TKD and knowledge it is flawed b/c you are trying to compare apples and oranges.

You see my reasoning?.......but yet it's flawed because it's apples to oranges? It's knowledge either way and the diploma or certification represents that aspect of/for the individual. So in essence, their the same.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

A Kukkiwon certificate guarantees portability of your rank. You are a person who has mentioned how much you love the art of Taekwondo. Since you have the opportunity to be recognized by the Kukkiwon, I'd encourage you to take it. Regardless of what you do in your TKD career, you won't look back on getting it with regret.

This is the main reason why I went the Kukkiwon certification way. I can go to any WTF-Kukkiwon affiliated dojang and I can train wearing my current rank.

Although it's good to possess those Kukkiwon BB certificates, what also means a lot to me were the gup certificates that I earned on my way up the ladder to BB because although these gup certificates didn't go through the Kukkiwon, they were signed by my Sabumnim who saw me progress in my training the entire time and recommended that I advance to BB when he felt I was fully prepared and ready. As was mentioned earlier, it was my instructor and his assistants who mentored me and watched me train my *** off. I respect them for their guidance and help more than I respect someone at the Kukkiwon dan office.

 

[matt.m]

It is just a flashy piece of paper. I have seen folks from the buy your black belt clubs that are certified dan rank by the kukkiwon. I didn't think their skill was better than green belt level in my organization. Don't get me wrong, I have seen good clubs and bad. We all have, it is a shame.

I am not saying that all people certified by the Kukkiwon are bad, I am just saying that I don't see the importance. It should be more important as an organizational thing.

 

[AceHBK]

You see my reasoning?.......but yet it's flawed because it's apples to oranges? It's knowledge either way and the diploma or certification represents that aspect of/for the individual. So in essence, their the same.

Hopefully I can clarify this better.

In regards to diplomas:

A diploma certifies that you are trainable. It says that you have some general knowledge of you major. I should use the word "allegedly" b/c there are those who have cheated their way thru or b.s. their way thru as opposed to those who really worked hard. Then add in some colleges are not as good as others, a diploma means just that. You are trainable and have some general knowledge on the subject. We all know that after you get a job, they train you ANYWAYS.

In regards to BB certification:

It means you have met the necessary requirements set forth to earn this certificate. As opposed to a diploma, what you have learned you can apply immediately. You can see the results of what you have learned ASAP as opposed to a job where you learn all over again once you get it. What you learned in college may have no bearing on your job today.

Now in the world today wheredo u look at who all all the certifications or who has the skills? U can get someone with Kukkiwon, ITF and WTF certs but they can't teach or whatever and just have skill. U can also run across someone who doesnt have it but they can teach, have the skill and what not.

In the real world that piece of paper does make a difference b/c it opens more doors. I say in TKD it doesnt make a real difference b/c the avg joe doesnt know and really won't care. They just want to learn from someone who they see for themself sems knowledgable and is as well a good teacher in that they are someone they can have a good relationship with.

I see a lot of people made the argument that when you have the certification, you can take your rank anywhere and others will recognize it. Does it really matter if they do or do not? How much does another persons opinion of you and your skill level in MA means to you? If you know that you are a BB and skilled is that all that should matter?

I see where you go to another school and they are quick to say that "if u come here u will go down a rank or stay at your rank for a good while till your skills improve". The teacher of that school always says that "you lack some skills but we can improve that here". It is nothing more than a ploy to make you think that they are better than your old school.

Again I say all this in regards that a person is not making a sparring career out of this. If you are, by all means just bite the bullet and get it. If not, it really isnt necessary. Most people will join a school b/c of the connection that they feel with the instructors more than anything else. Those certs are are last if they are on the mind at all.

With TKD being such a sport they use certs to distinguish one from another to show who is better and that is not necessarily the case. It is first and foremost a BUSINESS. If it wasn't, then some schools wouldnt charge $1000 for it.

 

[Last Fearner]

I had an appointment just tonight with a young lady, in her twenties, who was seeking private lessons. She had visited two other Taekwondo schools: one with an American Instructor who claims to hold the same rank as me, and another with a Korean who is higher rank than me.

She didn't know anything about Kukkiwon, WTF, US. Chung Do Kwan, or anything else! Neither of the other two instructors had mentioned any of this to her. It took only a few minutes of showing her my certificates, explaining what the Kukkiwon was, how the WTF and IOC were connected, and she understood completely. She was impressed, and couldn't understand why the other instructors didn't talk about those things.

I survived for a long time without Kukkiwon certification, and did quite well. However, if I had it to do over, I would get it in a heartbeat. There are benefits to having an international "stamp of approval" even if there are flaws with the system. We should work harder to improve it, rather than saying that the certificate doesn't mean anything, because it does. By the way, my customer . . . she didn't join the other American school, or the Korean's school. She joined my school for private lessons at $30.00 per hour (a discount rate!).

CM Eisenhart

 

[Gizmo]

I'm a 3rd Dan Kukkiwon, and a 5th Dan from an independent group. Seeing what's happening in the TKD world today, I couldn't care less about Kukkiwon certification. If somebody comes to my school with any proof of rank, no matter from which group, I evaluate his/her standard, not the lettering on the top of his/her certificate. But again, we're not really into Olympics...

My students are allowed to test under Kukkiwon examiner or they can also choose independent certification. Since several years, we had no applicants for Kukkiwon certs.

I also feel that there is a huge difference between university diploma and Dan certificate. Harvard diploma means that somebody attended the classes at the University, passed the exams and graduated from one of the most respected universiteis in the world. Having Kukkiwon certificate means for sure that somebody collected the fee, signed the application and sent it to Korea - but on the other hand, there is no real quality control over it. Maybe there was a physical test, maybe not; maybe it was a hard one, maybe just 15 minutes. It's possible to buy yourself a genuine Kukkiwon certification (I was offered it more than once), I doubt it's possible to buy yourself a Harvard diploma.

Therefore, I'm more interested in the person who was the examiner, than in the organisation sending the paper. Kukkiwon is also, to some extent, the mail order company - just bigger and better, but still, it's just about $$$.

Regards

Gizmo

 

[Gemini]

Kukkiwon is also, to some extent, the mail order company - just bigger and better, but still, it's just about $$$

I will certainly respect your opinion, but I'll never share it. Much to the point of LF's post, every system has flaws. We can either work together to address and improve on them or we can sit back and critisize them. Being a Kukkiwon certified 2nd dan, I chose the former. I cannot control the entire world, but I can control my little piece of it.

In this thread, I've heard opinions on both sides, and will respect those opinions because they're based on people's individual experience. But the arguments against a Kukkiwon certificate I've read so far have been directed more towards why you shouldn't get a Kukkiwon certificate as apposed to why you SHOULD get an individual certificate. For anyone to convince me I've chosen poorly, they'd have to build up the argument FOR the independant certification, not tear down the Kukkiwon one.

 

[terryl965]

Gizmo
Therefore, I'm more interested in the person who was the examiner, than in the organisation sending the paper. Kukkiwon is also, to some extent, the mail order company - just bigger and better, but still, it's just about $$$.

Sir you do relize that the cost from the Kukkiwon is only $70.00, now some instructors over charge but for the most part not really anymore and it is not a mail order certificate as you stated, do you really have a clue what that Kukkiwon means to those of us that have gone over there and trained?
Terry

 

[Gizmo]

To me it's simple. If you need Kukkiwon certificate, get it. If it's important for you due to the fact that you want to try for say National Olympic squad, or if you want to compete in the continental or world championships - that's OK, it's important for you, just pay 70 bucks or whatever you will be charged, pass the test and the sky is the limit for your WTF competition career.

I know the prices of Kukkiwon certificates very well, having paid for them. To some it's just $ 70.00, but in some parts of the world it's as many as $ 70.00 (for Koreans AFAIK the certification is much cheaper). My point is, I don't see too many pros of having a Kukkiwon certificate over, let's say, ITF certificate. Unless - again - you're heading for big WTF competitions. It might be interesting that in some parts of the world Kukkiwon is NOT universally recognised - if you achieved your Kukkiwon certificate outside of the national association, you will be required to pay for its registration, or you may even be required to retest upon joining the national body. It's a special situation and it doesn't happen often, but still, it happens.

Is it an important document for those wanting to pursue their career as Olympic style instructor or competitor? Yes. Is it hard to achieve? Sometimes yes, sometimes not. It depend's who is the examiner. Is it possible that you will have a great Dan test, the one you will remember forever? Yes. Is it possible to BUY a Kukkiwon certificate without any testing? Yes.

It really boils down to what is important to you, to how many bucks you want to spare, and what are your objectives in TKD. And of course what are the options involved. I'm not interested in the Olympics, so the Kukkiwon certificate is not that important to me, at least not more than any other certificate I have.

Kukkiwon - the office - it's just that, the office. Kukkiwon as the world's best known TKD dojang - it's a different story. You might have great time training there and at the sem time you might have nightmares dealing with people representing the "political" side of it. It's just like with any other association, federation or school. You may like the training very much - but not necessary the politics.

Regards

Gizmo

 

[terryl965]

Kukkiwon - the office - it's just that, the office. Kukkiwon as the world's best known TKD dojang - it's a different story. You might have great time training there and at the sem time you might have nightmares dealing with people representing the "political" side of it. It's just like with any other association, federation or school. You may like the training very much - but not necessary the politics.

Regards

Gizmo

I agree with this whole heartly, I can not stand all the politics and by no means I'm going to compete at the Olympics but maybe one day my son will and I would love to be there as his coach and mentor.
Gizmo I truely respact your views about this.
Terry

 

[Last Fearner]

It is likely that those who have had negative experiences about Kukkiwon certification will never change their mind. They might have been trained in organizations who don't use it, don't require it, don't care about it, and tend to knock it, but there seems to be a misconception here.

There is no doubt that the rules of Olymics require the Kukkiwon certification for officials, so there is no way around that for those involved in Olympics (particularly coaches, judges, referees, tournament directors, host organizations, etc, etc.). However, Kukkiwon certification is not about the Olympics, so we should simply drop that topic from the discussion.

The Kukkiwon should be viewed as the starting point of something positive. Korea has only recently been liberated (relatively speaking), and the reorganization of their National Martial Art, now called "Taekwondo," is in its developmental stages. It is my belief, that individual certificates from your own instructor are almost always going to be more "special" to the student (I still have my 1st Dan certificate from my instructor in 1978, and it is not Kukkiwon), but this should not make an international certificate from the Korean Taekwondo World Headquarters in Seoul, Korea any less important.

It is my opinion that a minimum standard of requirements, set for all Taekwondo Black Belts in the world, which would prove to anyone, without question, that they have had proper training to claim the honored rank of Black Belt (and not a fake, kinko certificate), would be a good thing! You might know your instructor's reputation, and all you need is his word that your training is good - - you know it is good, but the rest of the world needs a better standard. New students need a more clear, recognizable standard before they join. YMCA, Health clubs, colleges and Universities need a more clear standard before they allow "Taekwondo" to be taught in their facilities. There are fakes and frauds out there, and we need to make this system better so it is harder for them to impersonate the legitimate instructors.

I believe it would be good for all Taekwondoists, no matter what their organizational affiliation, to get behind an effort to create the kind of reputation that "Harvard" or some other major university has. So, you feel the Kukkiwon is not to that level of yet. You say that some Black Belts get a real "hard test" - - isn't that a good thing? You say that some get a simple test, and certificates are just bought and handed out - - isn't that a bad thing, and something we need to change? Don't knock the standard of evaluation, because some people are getting around it. Improve it! Change it! Do your part to make the system better.

This is my opinion - and I'm stickin' to it!
CM Eisenhart

 

[MSUTKD]

Well said, as always, from you! Hummmmmm, To Last Fearner you listen.

ron

 

[matt.m]

I agree on one aspect, there should be a measuring stick that substantiates a dan. There is a lot to be said about this fake dan business. There should be one standardization. Period end of story, not ITF or WTF or Kukkiwon.

I will say without hesitation, there is an organization in St. Louis that is huge for the Kukkiwon certifications. The bad part is that some of these Kukkiwon certified black belts forms look horrible when done against other black belts from other schools.

What I am saying is have an accredited governing body set forth standardization. Not three, for that only brings about the whole "Which is better?" types of discussion.

Hapkido is in the same boat, so I am not even going to touch that. However, Judo is standardized. It has a set cirriculum, set # of points needed for next belt w/ time and grade etc.

Tae Kwon Do I feel should do the same. For instance, at Moo Sul Kwan the belts go in the following order (white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, red, black). So, for a Tae kwon Do practitioner to reach green belt they must know the following:

Chong Gi, Dan-Gun, and Do-San. Along with Tae Guek Il, EE and Sam Jang.

Those are just the forms, not the one steps - basics or self defense. Oh and by the way it takes 155 class points to be eligible to test for green. That is broken down into 40 for white to yellow. 45 from yellow to orange. Finally 60 from orange to green.

That is being based on two class periods a week, etc.

 

[Gemini]

Sounds like you got the plan, matt! I think you should head to Korea and set those boys straight!

 

[AceHBK]

Look at it like joing a fraternity/sorority.
Do you have to join?? No.
Does membership have some priveldges? Sure
Is it the end all to be all? Nope

Will you gain somethings from it? Of course
Will you lose anything by not joining? Nope.

 

[matt.m]

Don't get me wrong anyone, I wasn't trying to rabble rouse. I was off on a tandem and got carried away. Sorry, if anyone took it the wrong way.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

IMHO, certifications aside, the fact of the matter is that it all comes down to the individual practitioner. In my experience I have seen some upper gup rank holders that are more knowledgible, experienced, more skilled, and quite frankly they have more heart and desire than some lower dan BBs certified by not only the Kukkiwon, but other sanctioning organizations as well. These weak BB practitioners are certainly weeded out as they attempt to climb higher up the TKD ladder.

Let me just state that it's good to have the paper backing your rank, I'm proud that I have my Kukkiwon certifications, but it really comes down to who and what you are, and what you bring to the martial arts table, irrespective of the certifications and shiny certificates.

 

[tkd_jen]

Thanks everyone, your perspectives have helped a lot!!!

 

[terryl965]

I hope we all helped you Jen and not confused you, get the Kukkiwon it will be a blessing in the long run.
Master Stoker

 

[tkd_jen]

That is the plan Master Stoker, that way if I ever move to your neck of the woods, maybe you'll let me train there!!