yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Sound like anyone we know?
Capoeira works
- Thread starter ATACX GYM
- Start date
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Twin Fist
Grandmaster
lineage is fair game around here in some discussions. If a kenpo guy claimed rank from Adrian Roman, it would make their opinion less credible.
right?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
are you talking about Amen Santos? I've not been aware of him in internet discussions, but I'm only here on MT and KenpoTalk. If he engages discussion elsewhere I've not seen it.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
aye, point taken, and without naming names, I can think if a number of folks as well.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
No, it's Amen Rhan. He's a regular on Kenponet and pisses people off by continually going on about race and how great he is.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
It seems that hints are slipping past your notice. This can be a great discussion -- or it can be locked and infractions issued. Debate the ideas, not the po Perhaps this is clearer:
ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
jks9199
Super Moderator
It seems that hints are slipping past your notice. This can be a great discussion -- or it can be locked and infractions issued. Debate the ideas, not the po Perhaps this is clearer:
ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
jks9199
Super Moderator
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
ah, I don't go on kenponet and I haven't encountered the fellow.
At least you had some experience with it. I disagree with you based on my experience, but at least you aren't just lambasting it based on uninformed, unexperienced opinion.
OP
OP
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
K,I've never seen Amen on kenponet and I have barely a few posts there.You guys may have more experience with Amen via the internet than I do,but I'm not in any great hurry to immediately frock your conclusions about him with any sort of concrete validity,considering how wildly inaccurate your interpretations of my posts are. For the record: JOSH brought up race first in capoeira,not I. He VERY CORRECTLY stated that one cannot have a genuine discussion of capoeira or capoeiristas without discussing the politics and history of race relations in Africa and Brazil. What I was limiting myself to pointing out was that these people are of the most wildly anti-capoeira,anti-capoeirista mindset humanly possible...and yet they left hundreds if not thousands of documents detailing the incredible effectiveness of capoeira and capoeristas under the worst of human circumstances (slavery). Slavers saying that they're terrified of the deadly effective capoeiristas and their capoeira is something on the order of Nazis saying that they're terrified of the deadly effectiveness of various European Jewish defense militias...who reside in Germany during Hitler's reign.You tend to BELIEVE these Nazis,because they more than anyone else are invested in crushing destroying and denigrating literally to the subhuman level European Jews so ANY compliment or positive statement by the Nazis regarding the ability of the European Jews would be wrenched from them by the most concrete and inescapable of circumstances. This is most definitely the case with capoeira and capoeiristas...over centuries.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
literally dozens of claims that the evil white slavers were "terrified" of the dancers, yet not one bit of evidence or proof
par for the course with this poster.
and better yet, who gives a crap?
the samurai were leery of the ninja back in the day, doesnt mean anything about modern day ninpo
200 years ago, pirates were scary, not so much any more.
relying on the past to prop up your stuff today is weak, lame and lazy.
AGAIN
if the dancing is not the "real" art, show us the real art.
par for the course with this poster.
and better yet, who gives a crap?
the samurai were leery of the ninja back in the day, doesnt mean anything about modern day ninpo
200 years ago, pirates were scary, not so much any more.
relying on the past to prop up your stuff today is weak, lame and lazy.
AGAIN
if the dancing is not the "real" art, show us the real art.
Outside of capoeira history, do you have any historical documentation to back any of this up?
People make all sorts of weird claims about martial arts, so I'm not singling you out.
Go read up on the samurang. You'll need to go to a Haidong Geomdo page to do so, however, as outside of that martial art, there is no recorded existence of such a group in Korea. Then there's the 'taekwondo is 2000 years old' claims, even though the art was derived mostly from a 20th century karate ryu.
Daniel
OP
OP
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
Again...centuries producing thousands of documents proving the exact opposite of your contentions.Again...Flying Crane,Josh,myself,other martial artists like bushidomartialarts and other people can tell you directly that there are capoeiristas who can fight. One of these worthy gentlemen met his wife in a capoeira class and she KO'd a man with a uppercut while sparring in their kenpo class.I am more than a little competent myself...and then there's the baddest man walking: Anderson Silva.I stated to you BEFORE I knew that others onsite also shared experiences similar to mine that there are an array of real capoeiristas out there who can fight; here on this site you have a direct link of "average" people to "above average people" all the way to the baddest h2h fighter on Earth: Anderson Silva,ALL claiming that capoeira works.Yet you--with a consistantly gigantic inaccuracy that I no longer consider to be amazing,seeing the pattern of your posts--sum this up as "par for the course with this poster". Have you even considered the import of the aggregate anecdotes and posts of people who hold a different opinion than you do about a art that you admittedly don't know about and don't train?
I know that you,Twin Fist,have a storied immunity to logic and pretty much any opinion save your own. I'm not looking to "change your mind", I'm simply looking to inform the more sensibly inclined posters who may be drawn to this thread due to the massive amounts of disinformation about capoeira out there. I'm not the only one who's stated that the "real" stuff is nothing like what you commonly see...and your responses and position is disturbingly parallel those MMA meat heads who swear that MMA is the ship and all else the sea. "If it's not in the UFC? It's not for real!" For instance,the "real" kenpo is nothing like the "commercial" kenpo.We RARELY see the "real" kenpo.But omg is it REAL.The "real" kajukenbo doesn't even show itself in say THE UFC so people who (mistakenly) think that the UFC is the ultimate proving grounds for a martial arts' effectiveness would be virtually wholly uninformed about kaju and thus erroneously conclude that kajukenbo or FMA are unrealistic arts; IF they exist at all. Kaju is badass. I can say that from DIRECT experience. If you tried to tell these guys,Twin Fist,that kaju is this and kaju is that? Their whole perspective would be:"Yeah but it's not in the UFC so it's not real." And that is that for them.
But sallgood.
Oh yeah,just to correct your historical "facts"? There's a distinction between the role of the ninja--which has evolved and been overtaken by SpecOps and special police units etc. the world over--and ninpo,the ancient esoteric martial arts that comprised the "common" warrior arts as well as the brace of martial disciplines that were specific to the ancient ninja.You're misrepresenting the facts. Again. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060706-modern-pirates.html
Due to the modern security and modern tech changing much of how travel is done (including maritime travel) there has been a plunge in the profitability of piracy,thus for centuries piracy has decreased almost to the point of nonexistence.I agree with you there.BUT recently--say over the last 10 years or thereabouts--the frequency of it has increased, and these people? Scary folks. Completely the opposite of the "not so much" assessment in your post.You're conflating the FREQUENCY of piracy with the SCARINESS OF THE PIRATES.They're NOT CLOSE TO THE SAME.So yeah,it's still scary. So much
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060706-modern-pirates.html
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OP
OP
ATACX GYM
2nd Black Belt
I'm glad you asked.I believe that a few posters prior to myself have specifically answered this question and Flying Crane has an excellent link on this matter,but the short answer is:THE HISTORY OF BRAZIL ALSO INCLUDES THE HISTORY OF CAPOEIRA. So we don't have to go to any specific capoeira group's site or whatever to learn that capoeira is highly potent.You can go to youtube,dailymotion,etc. and see Anderson Silva vouching for the potency of capoeira and see him pulling off capoeira vs Cote,Leites,Maia,and others.Merely read the documents of the slavers and the subsequent builders of Brazilian society and the papers of the times an you will see numerous references to "capoeirsitas" and "disorders" and whatnot.You need not rely upon the oral tradition of capoeiristas alone; the overwhelming majority of the documents of the slavers and whatnot who comprised much of Brazil's gentry confirms this beyond any doubt.It's this combination of facts--the oral tradition and written tradition kept by the capoeiristas and the works of scholars like Nestor Capoeira's "Capoeira:Roots of the Dance Fight Game" and The jogo de Angola from Luanda to Cyberspace,Capoeira and Candomble by Floyd Merrell,etc.--that I and others have been consistently referring to over and over again during this discussion.
http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1556436017
http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Roots-Dance-Fight-Game-Nestor/dp/1556434049
http://books.google.com/books?id=Js...kQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Capoeira scholar&f=false
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Gotta go with the others on this. Capoeiristas led the majority of the slave rebellions in Brazil, including one so successful that the leadership was making headway towards recognition in Europe as an independent state. There's a reason the powers that were made it illegal, and it's not the quality of the music.
In terms of modern effectiveness, I've always viewed it as much like ninjutsu. Many of the skills that made it so dangerous were about stealth, tactical deception and using opportunistic or hidden weapons. These are still taught in some schools...most often Capoeira Angola...and you'll still occasionally see a razor blade between somebody's toes in competition.
As a guy who's studied Capoeira, Aikido, Kenpo, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Escrima and Krav seriously, and has used them in security and protection work.....I've never done a front flip in a tussle. I have used Capoeira's jinga to move through crowds and (much like my Muay Thai and Wrestling experience) the conditioning from training has definitely made a difference.
It's also fair to say that there's a level of awareness training Capoeira included that the others did not....but to TF's point, it's the same awareness training I got from ballroom dance.
Okay, these are all capoeira books. I ask you again, OUTSIDE OF CAPOERIRA history and source material, do you have any historical documentation?
You say that the Portugese recorded this stuff. Where?
If Chief Black Hawk Running Crow states that his tribe fought effectively against American forces during the United States' westward expansion, he can point to accounts written by US military personel detailing Custer's last stand to support this in addition to his tribal record of what happened.
Since you claim that the Portugese and the Nazis recorded this, then there should be source material outside of Capoeira books.
Can you provide any such references?
And please stop bringing up Anderson Silva. Acording to Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Silva, his background is as follows:
Although known primarily for his mastery of Muay thai striking, Silva is also a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu blackbelt, a rank he earned in 2006 from Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira who follows Gracie Lineage through Carlson Gracie, likewise Murilo Bustamante and the Brazilian Top Team. He began martial arts training at the age of 14, training Tae kwon do and earning a black belt by the age of 18.He is also a black belt in Judo and a yellow rope in Capoeira.
Not much capoeira in there as compared to Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, and Taekwondo. I'm sure that he uses what Capoeira he's learned in the ring effectively, but he uses a ton of other stuff too.
But aside from that, I specifically asked you about historical verification of the claims you made regarding capoeirista of a century past as recorded by the Portugese. Please furnish a reference to these outside sources that can be found outside of a book about capoeira.
Anderson Silva, good as he is, is irrelevent to this.
Daniel
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I really don't care much about this whole argument to be honest. Most people here have had no experience with capoeira outside of some youtube clips and are not in a position to speak intelligently about it. Those people have a right to an opinion, tho that opinion is worthless. A few people here have that necessary experience, and I am one of them. I've tried to educate the readership here, but I get the feeling that some of the people have made up their minds and have decided to remain deliberately and opinionatedly ignorant. If true, there's nothing I can say to change their minds and I really do not care. It's a source of amusement, really.
However, I'll try one more time to educate on the topic, starting with my own background in capoeira so that you all know where my information and thoughts are coming from.
I trained capoeira obsessively for maybe 7 years, with the first year or two mostly working on my own with limited instruction. I finally landed in San Francisco and trained under the San Francisco branch of ABADA group, which is headed by Mestre Camisa in Rio de Janiero. Love him or hate him, Camisa is a big figure in the capoeira world. My instructor was Mestranda Marcia Cigarra, one of the senior most instructors under Camisa. In my time training with Marcia, I was ultimately graded as a "graduated student", which is something akin to what a shodan would be in an Asian art. I was among the group of senior students at that time in our school, and I often taught and lead class training when Marcia was unavailable for one reason or other. I drifted away from capoeira after I began studying the CHinese arts, tho a few years later I came back and resumed training for another 6 months or so before stopping again. Ultimately I felt like the Chinese arts are where my true calling lies and that is what I train exclusively now. It has been several years since I've trained in capoeira, tho I will visit the school on occasion.
Prior to training in capoeira, I had already been involved in the martial arts for a number of years, having ranked at shodan in Tracy lineage kenpo, and dabbled in a few other things along the way including a small bit of judo from a friend while in college.
As I stated in my link to the other thread and in my posts in this thread, the GAME of capoeira is not the same as FIGHTING with capoeira. They are two different aspects of the art. In the United States I believe that most schools train for the game and not for the fight. I've not been to Brazil and I've not experienced Capoeira elsewhere so I cannot speak for what others may be doing. But from what I've observed it is my opinion that most people train for the game, and dangerously some of those folks BELIEVE they are training to fight, but they are not.
In the game of capoeira, you find a lot more of the acrobatics, and the rythm and physical dialog are heavily emphasized. This is because it is being played as a game, and these elements build the context and flavor and energy of that game. It can be a lot of fun, and the game itself can range from very easy and gentle and friendly, all the way to harsh and hostile and nasty and painful and injurious. But it's still the game and is not honest training to fight.
A criticism of my own is that people put too much emphasis on the acrobatics. That is one thing I hate about what is often seen on Youtube: it's all acrobatics. Seldom do we see the actual interaction and development of the physical dialog between the capoeiristas. Instead we just see two people showing off with acrobatics that are out of context and give little or no development to the game itself. One can play an excellent game with few or even no acrobatics at all. But everyone wants to show off. This is a criticism that holds for Modern Wushu as well: over the years the acrobatics have become more and more heavily emphasised to the point where it's become ridiculous and injurious to the athletes. In my observations, I believe this is happening in a lot of capoeira schools as well. People focus on the acrobatics to the detriment of the real skills. We see outstanding gymnasts who cannot play a decent game. And the problem is, it is reinforced by the people who don't know better and who just think the acrobatics are "cool", but do not understand how they need to fit properly within the context of the game, or they are stupid and pointless. This kind of capoeira becomes a performance art, and not even a game anymore.
I believe that most of the acrobatics that we see in capoeira today are fairly new additions to the art. They did not exist back when capoeira was primarily a fighting method. As society has changed and the need to fight has diminished, capoeira changed and more and more acrobatics have been working into the art. In my opinion, the capoeira of 250 years ago looked very little like what it looks today. I believe it was more direct, very little by way of acrobatics, brutal, nasty, and decisive. I do not believe the acrobatics had a strong place in capoeira, tho I hesitate to say they did not exist at all.
Today, people fool themselves into thinking that they are training to fight, when they are really training to play the game. People fool themselves into believing they can use the acrobatics to fight. I do not believe it, tho I can see theoretical use for them. The problem is, lots of things look good on paper and seem to work with a training partner, but are not workable in the real world. This is the same criticism I have for many of the kenpo techniques. At any rate, my own capoeira school also trained for the game and not for the fight. My own prior experiences with other martial arts gave me the insights to recognize the difference, even tho most of the people at that school did not. But I recognize that capoeira isn't simply a bad style for fighting, but rather these are two aspects of the art and they need to be trained properly to realize what it has to offer. To state that capoeira is no good, that capoeira cannot fight, is foolish and ignorant. But to train for the game and practice all the acrobatics and then believe you can really fight with THAT aspect of capoeira, is likewise foolish. There is a difference even tho most people who do capoeira (at least in the US) cannot see the difference.
To watch a game and see the acrobatics and hear the music and conclude: capoeira is a dance and cannot fight, is ignorant. If that is what you believe, then you do not even know what you are looking at, and you do not know what you do not know.
That's about all I've got to say on it. People who want to continue living in the dark will stub their toes. I don't care.
However, I'll try one more time to educate on the topic, starting with my own background in capoeira so that you all know where my information and thoughts are coming from.
I trained capoeira obsessively for maybe 7 years, with the first year or two mostly working on my own with limited instruction. I finally landed in San Francisco and trained under the San Francisco branch of ABADA group, which is headed by Mestre Camisa in Rio de Janiero. Love him or hate him, Camisa is a big figure in the capoeira world. My instructor was Mestranda Marcia Cigarra, one of the senior most instructors under Camisa. In my time training with Marcia, I was ultimately graded as a "graduated student", which is something akin to what a shodan would be in an Asian art. I was among the group of senior students at that time in our school, and I often taught and lead class training when Marcia was unavailable for one reason or other. I drifted away from capoeira after I began studying the CHinese arts, tho a few years later I came back and resumed training for another 6 months or so before stopping again. Ultimately I felt like the Chinese arts are where my true calling lies and that is what I train exclusively now. It has been several years since I've trained in capoeira, tho I will visit the school on occasion.
Prior to training in capoeira, I had already been involved in the martial arts for a number of years, having ranked at shodan in Tracy lineage kenpo, and dabbled in a few other things along the way including a small bit of judo from a friend while in college.
As I stated in my link to the other thread and in my posts in this thread, the GAME of capoeira is not the same as FIGHTING with capoeira. They are two different aspects of the art. In the United States I believe that most schools train for the game and not for the fight. I've not been to Brazil and I've not experienced Capoeira elsewhere so I cannot speak for what others may be doing. But from what I've observed it is my opinion that most people train for the game, and dangerously some of those folks BELIEVE they are training to fight, but they are not.
In the game of capoeira, you find a lot more of the acrobatics, and the rythm and physical dialog are heavily emphasized. This is because it is being played as a game, and these elements build the context and flavor and energy of that game. It can be a lot of fun, and the game itself can range from very easy and gentle and friendly, all the way to harsh and hostile and nasty and painful and injurious. But it's still the game and is not honest training to fight.
A criticism of my own is that people put too much emphasis on the acrobatics. That is one thing I hate about what is often seen on Youtube: it's all acrobatics. Seldom do we see the actual interaction and development of the physical dialog between the capoeiristas. Instead we just see two people showing off with acrobatics that are out of context and give little or no development to the game itself. One can play an excellent game with few or even no acrobatics at all. But everyone wants to show off. This is a criticism that holds for Modern Wushu as well: over the years the acrobatics have become more and more heavily emphasised to the point where it's become ridiculous and injurious to the athletes. In my observations, I believe this is happening in a lot of capoeira schools as well. People focus on the acrobatics to the detriment of the real skills. We see outstanding gymnasts who cannot play a decent game. And the problem is, it is reinforced by the people who don't know better and who just think the acrobatics are "cool", but do not understand how they need to fit properly within the context of the game, or they are stupid and pointless. This kind of capoeira becomes a performance art, and not even a game anymore.
I believe that most of the acrobatics that we see in capoeira today are fairly new additions to the art. They did not exist back when capoeira was primarily a fighting method. As society has changed and the need to fight has diminished, capoeira changed and more and more acrobatics have been working into the art. In my opinion, the capoeira of 250 years ago looked very little like what it looks today. I believe it was more direct, very little by way of acrobatics, brutal, nasty, and decisive. I do not believe the acrobatics had a strong place in capoeira, tho I hesitate to say they did not exist at all.
Today, people fool themselves into thinking that they are training to fight, when they are really training to play the game. People fool themselves into believing they can use the acrobatics to fight. I do not believe it, tho I can see theoretical use for them. The problem is, lots of things look good on paper and seem to work with a training partner, but are not workable in the real world. This is the same criticism I have for many of the kenpo techniques. At any rate, my own capoeira school also trained for the game and not for the fight. My own prior experiences with other martial arts gave me the insights to recognize the difference, even tho most of the people at that school did not. But I recognize that capoeira isn't simply a bad style for fighting, but rather these are two aspects of the art and they need to be trained properly to realize what it has to offer. To state that capoeira is no good, that capoeira cannot fight, is foolish and ignorant. But to train for the game and practice all the acrobatics and then believe you can really fight with THAT aspect of capoeira, is likewise foolish. There is a difference even tho most people who do capoeira (at least in the US) cannot see the difference.
To watch a game and see the acrobatics and hear the music and conclude: capoeira is a dance and cannot fight, is ignorant. If that is what you believe, then you do not even know what you are looking at, and you do not know what you do not know.
That's about all I've got to say on it. People who want to continue living in the dark will stub their toes. I don't care.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
For slave rebellion, try
"Children of God's Fire: A Documentary History of Black Slavery in Brazil", Robert Conrad
"Slave Rebellion in Brazil," Joao Reis
"Slaves, Peasants & Rebels. Reconsidering Brazilian Slavery," Stuart Schwartz
Also look into the Palmares Republic, although the Zumbi folklore is a bit suspect.
Not going to go find a reference for the legal part. That's like asking for proof that weed is illegal in the US. And it obviously wasn't because of the music -- although there was certainly a racial/social aspect to the banning as well.
"Children of God's Fire: A Documentary History of Black Slavery in Brazil", Robert Conrad
"Slave Rebellion in Brazil," Joao Reis
"Slaves, Peasants & Rebels. Reconsidering Brazilian Slavery," Stuart Schwartz
Also look into the Palmares Republic, although the Zumbi folklore is a bit suspect.
Not going to go find a reference for the legal part. That's like asking for proof that weed is illegal in the US. And it obviously wasn't because of the music -- although there was certainly a racial/social aspect to the banning as well.
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