Capoeira works

[Flying Crane]

actually, some of those capoeira books are well researched and well documented and referenced. They are not just written about capoeira off the top of someone's head based on verbal folklore passed from one generation to another. Some of those books are scholarly works.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

actually, some of those capoeira books are well researched and well documented and referenced. They are not just written about capoeira off the top of someone's head based on verbal folklore passed from one generation to another. Some of those books are scholarly works.

Of that I have no doubt, but I tend to prefer direct source material for referencing historical events. Probably has to do with the amount of seemingly well researched urban legend in many MA books.

Also, another poster had made a comment about this stuff being only in capoeira history which capoeira wrote themselves. Furnishing outside material is the best response to that.

Furnishing more capoeira material and repeated references to some MMA fighter does nothing to address that.

Daniel

 

[bushidomartialarts]

To FC's point, if you're really interested pick up Gerard Taylor's histories. Exhaustively researched with solid scholarship. Good stuff.

 

[Flying Crane]

To FC's point, if you're really interested pick up Gerard Taylor's histories. Exhaustively researched with solid scholarship. Good stuff.

yeah, I recommned volume one over volume two, for the really meaty history stuff. Volume two seemed a bit more fluffy, recent internet stuff and whatnot, not as deep as volume one. But volume one is excellent.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My main concern is that in discussions where historical reference is made to outside sources recording events in an art's history, some reference to that outside sources material should be cited. Particularly if one is going to invoke it repeatedly.

As for the premise of the thread, as I pointed out to Atacx, I really had no notion of capoeira not working until he brought up the topic.

I have a general opinion that flashy stuff should not be taught as go to options in a self defense scenario, but that applies to every art, not just capoeira, and has no bearing on capoeira's overall effectiveness, as I am not qualified to comment on that.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

As for the premise of the thread, as I pointed out to Atacx, I really had no notion of capoeira not working until he brought up the topic.


Daniel

a very reasonable position overall, and the above portion is particularly interesting in its own right.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I think my main problem with this discussion is that there are those who have researched this material, and those that have not. I seems, with Daniel Sullivan being the notable exception, that those who have not researched this topic already have a negative view of capoiera, and don't intend to truly discuss the issue from an informed point of view.

This becomes problematic because it makes true discourse almost impossible. Frankly I don't think many people involved in this discussion who haven't done capoiera or researched Brazil's history either don't care enough about the topic to do so, or don't have very good research methods. Either way, it's intellectual laziness, pure and simple. They can't claim they haven't got the time; they're posting on an internet forum.

So at this point, I'm switching from active participant to lurker, because it's a waste of my time. I'm not interested in getting into another debate with someone who is coming from a point of ignorance who has already made up their minds on the argument. Nothing but love for those people, and I'm happy to discuss and debate with them on topics they ARE knowledgeable about, but this thread is an ouroboros, and I'm not fond of the taste of my tail.

 

[yorkshirelad]

jinga to move through crowds and (much like my Muay Thai and Wrestling experience) the conditioning from training has definitely made a difference.

.

If you were on a detail on mine and I saw you doing a "jinga to move through crowds", you would be fired at the end of the night.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

You fail to understand...or I failed to communicate clearly.

I of course did not stand there and move in an U-shaped pattern moving my hands in a pattern unfortunately similar to John Travolta dancing in pulp fiction.

I did, however, just like I was taught, use the balance, weight distribution and awareness of the movements of others -- which is what the jinga is -- to move through crowds much faster than I would have otherwise.

Think about professional ballroom competition. They're doing cha-cha, but nobody's going "one/two/cha-cha-cha." That's just what you do until you learn how to "do it without doing it"

 

[yorkshirelad]

I think my main problem with this discussion is that there are those who have researched this material, and those that have not. I seems, with Daniel Sullivan being the notable exception, that those who have not researched this topic already have a negative view of capoiera, and don't intend to truly discuss the issue from an informed point of view.

.

I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.

Imo this is a better and more balanced post than some others of yours that I have read on this thread.Thank you for sharing this.

I am more than a little familiar with aikido and hapkido (trained with GM Chu,a Hung Gar Master,Hapkido 6th dan certified from Korea,ex-Hwarangdo Master and,a Korean of real serious skills and old skool sensibilities).My response regarding the effectiveness of ANY martial art is: "IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN." Aikido,tai chi,bagua,capoeira,Daito Ryu,etc. is every bit as lethal as "STOMP YOUR NADS-FU"...depending upon how it's trained.Period. Read this article about aikido:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=631


Btw I used the ginga while striking juking etc. to thread my way through a rowdy,drunk,hard partying crowd that was half mosh pit half sexcapade here in Long Beach CA some years ago during the JAZZ FESTIVAL and THE PRIDE PARADE celebration.It's extremely effective.The footwork footwork footwork is ABSOLUTELY VITAL in capoeira.I've found that merging my capoeira footwork with boxing tkd aikido hapkido and kali footwork supercharged my offense and defense because boxing tkd aikido hapkido and kali helped me to unlock the functional arsenal of capoeira's footwork,and capoeira's footwork became much much more complete than the footwork of boxing kickboxing tkd aikido hapkido and kali alone or together,imo.It has to be experienced to be grasped and believed.You flow through crowds like a combo of Barry Sanders in his prime shredding defenses,a skilled and seasoned dancer,a free runner and a shark...playing Red Rover.Lol.It's hard to explain but when you get it? You got it.

 

[Twin Fist]

and again, for the last time, if it is soooooo awesome

show us

dont tell us

dont bore me with ancient history

dont SAY anything

show us

show us some self defense capoeira that doesnt include any cartwheels or handstands, music or 50 guys standing around looking funky

SHOW US the REAL stuff

cuz untill then, it is all just claims and tall tales.

 

[Flying Crane]

I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.

what this really means is, in the experience that you had with these methods, for YOU, it's not a good match and does not work. This does not mean that these systems, objectively and as a whole, do not work for anyone.

hell, I see too many problems with kenpo to put much stock in it, but a whole lot of other people believe it works well for them. OK then, not good for me, but good for someone else. If I started shouting it down and insisting that it's simply no good, would you accept my arguments? The fact that I've actually trained to shodan level in a kenpo lineage actually gives me SOME credibility in the discussion. What if I had none, or next to zero, experience in kenpo, yet I insisted based on what I saw on Youtube?

 

[Twin Fist]

I dont know that any style or styles are all that better than any other style or styles in general.

I mean, everyone punches, everyone kicks, there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work.

the success is in the PERSON doing it.

most of the time anyway

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I love Aikido. I continue to train in Aiki, but I don't think it is an effective art when practised alone. I think the art is beautiful, but I don't think Aikikai Aikido, Daito ryu even Tomiki is advisable for self protection. If we read the 'history' books concerning Takeda Sokaku, we are told of a tiny man who killed dozens of bigger, tougher men using his art. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but if he did, he was just a tough man who was trained in Daito ryu. This doesn't make Daito ryu effective, or even it's latter form of Aikido. I too have trained just a little in Capoeira, and personally I don't think it's effective for self protection. It's great for fitness, flexibility and meeting hot chicks though, so in that respect, it has my vote.

Now I have a lot more knowledge of aikido and train in a similar art (hapkido). Technique wise, aikido is just fine for self protection. The occasional story pops up that tells of someone using aikido to defend against an attacker, though such stories are found about other arts as well.

From what I have heard and read of aikido, the primary issue is that it seems to be taught in something of a bubble, wherein you defend against less than realistic attacks and the attacker cooperates with you as you apply your defense.

Aikido is hardly alone in this, but in aikido's defense, a lot of people seem to train in it as more of a lifestyle than for actual self defense, and the art is often called 'the way of peace.' Certainly, if I ever find the time to do so, I will train in aikido for the richness of the art and because I love wearing a hakama.

My personal observation has been that, when trained in and applied to self defense, most arts tend to look more similar than different.

Daniel

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I dont know that any style or styles are all that better than any other style or styles in general.

I mean, everyone punches, everyone kicks, there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work.

the success is in the PERSON doing it.

most of the time anyway

Bingo. Absolutely agreed. I'd add that there are better combinations of body type and mindset with specific arts -- there are reasons that my 6'7" brother is in a kicking art and little old 5'11" me went primarily for kenpo and grappling.

Out of curiosity, TF, and I don't mean to just pick on you....how does this jive with all the railing you've been doing about how capoeira sucks?

 

[Twin Fist]

re-read what I wrote:

"there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work."

tkd has its stupid silly assed high kicks, this has the lambada,

neither is a good idea when it's REAL

and you are right about body combinations, shorter people with barrel chests? karate will work good for their bodies, tall long legs? look at tkd

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Missed the intent first time through. You remain, even when we disagree, entirely consistent.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I dont know that any style or styles are all that better than any other style or styles in general.

I mean, everyone punches, everyone kicks, there isnt much to really seperate the arts, and what makes them unique is usually the stuff that doesnt work.

the success is in the PERSON doing it.

most of the time anyway

I tend to lean toward the combination of person and system,with a 55/45 split toward person over system in importance.For instance,I think Anderson Silva would still be a good taichi guy,but he's thee best and probably the G.O.A.T. MMA guy. I think that the method of training--the functional training of head kicks etc.--combined with the person training directly impacts and maximizes the feasibility of said techniques.Head kicks are reliable,if you train them to be reliable.They show up too many times throughout history and will continue to do so.The more acrobatic roda movements in capoeira are not designed for combat,they're designed for the roda.Physical attributes enhancement,etc. We seem to agree with the principles--punches kicks blocks footwork head movement weaponry practical focus functional training mandate self-defense trumps sport combat--but we differ in some of the signal specifics of how we determine and apply these specifics.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Now I have a lot more knowledge of aikido and train in a similar art (hapkido). Technique wise, aikido is just fine for self protection. The occasional story pops up that tells of someone using aikido to defend against an attacker, though such stories are found about other arts as well.

Daniel

I too love both Aikido and Hapkido. I trined in a combination of Aikido and Jujutsu unber the Abe Kenshiro lineage in England from a young age under both my father, and Peter Garside sensei, who was a deshi of Abbe himself. I also have a chodan in Sin moo hapkido and have been in the fortunate position to have picked Do ju Nim's brains on a few occasions.
Aikido was developed in it's present form as spiritual development through a physical practise. The control series in Aikido, Ikajo through gokyo do not work against attacks that involve momentum, like punches, kicks and weapon attacks, but they are trained against these attacks. They look good in the dojo, but you'd have to be mental to try this out agaist a thug intent on kicking your head in. That's not to say that componants of Aikido cannot be used effectively by the average guy. The same techniques can be used against stationary attacks like, grabs and chokes, when used in conjunction with a plethora of atemi-waza, but these techniques have to be taught in an effective manner. Ukemi waza is also very useful in a self protection sense as the average person is far more likely to trip, fall and seriously hurt yourself, then get battered in a street fight.

When I see someone in a video claim to be teaching self protection tacticsand the guy goes into a hand stand, I will instantly dismiss it as foolish, because it is. Sure, there are probably many useful self-protection facets to Capoeira, but as a self protection art alone, it doesn't hold water.