i understand. the movements of the tiger are beauty but the act of it killing its prey are not.
the same is with MA's. What we do, what we have learned has a certain beauty to it, but to see it used on a live opponent who is trying to harm us is not.
I believe this is why we call it Martial Arts.
B
Do you think that the context decides how beautiful a practice is? I am almost excluding MA when called upon in anger, I mean though can sparring or tournament fighting never demonstrate that beauty?
Wing Tsun is not known for being asthetically pleasing, but here are some superb examples of the flow of chi sau. To a wing tsun nerd like me, I think it's fantastic and beautiful to watch
whoops...wrong link...here it is
http://youtu.be/qaP1X-lEtgc
http://youtu.be/6tn4IiZbgGc
That is mesmerising I agree (the chi sau I mean lol). Thank you for posting this up. I do not think you need be a MA nerd to appreciate the fluency in that practice. Again, thank you.
I think martial arts can be beautiful when used against an opponent, Judo can look beautiful when a throw is administered perfectly, plus i find some of the techniques used here beautiful.
I think that is true yes. I think the clip you posted demonstrates that technical proficiency naturally leads to something beautiful. Would you agree? If sloppy technique is ugly then, is there a sense that we should be aiming for a practice that IS beautiful do you think? Thank you very much.
I have studied Yang style Taijiquan (Tung lineage) for 17 years and I have also learned Chen Laojia Yilu and silk reeling.
The style itself lends itself to a practice that would demonstrate what most of us I think regard as beautiful. I wonder though, is there ugly practice also in your style? I wonder is it a misonception that the beauty in Taijiquan is inherent in the forms when the reality is that the beauty is in the flow and skill of the practitioner do you think? Thank you again
Yeah, you know when you see these staged Kung-Fu fights and all their moves are smooth, flowing and perfecty-timed (aright, if it's staged, maybe it doesn't count)?
I think it is staged with the express purpose of being attractive, no? I think to derive beauty from "normal" practice stems from the ability of the practitioner to knit it all together. I do not know if that is correct. Have you any favourite examples of the staged KF you are referring to? Thank you for your thoughts
Welcome
I would say grace does not necessarily preclude functionality. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. TKD is a mix of linear and circular motions - naturally the shortest and therefore quickest way to a target is in a straight line. But some of the circular techniques sacrifice a little time for the sake of building power, and are certainly capable of causing devastating amounts of damage when applied to a stationary target. It comes down to whether you can get them to a human target before it moves or is covered.
I think the graceful techniques of TKD are part of the reason why it is viewed by some as less than functional. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that when the techniques are used against a target successfully, they stop looking so pretty. A huge graceful looping kick stops rather abruptly when it meets a target.
I think that these graceful looping techniques combined with a superior sense of distance, a little deception, and the right targets, can be extremely functional. Like anything worth having, it's a LOT of practice.
I like the points you are making. I think I have often an ambivalence between something which I know is damaging and at the same time which is technically flawless and has been led up to by a wonderfully interconnected flow of movements. You mention that movement ceases to be pretty when it connects with a target. Yes, this is what I mean. I think though that there is also beauty in hard atemi or even a KO, however it requires a certain objectivity -and perhaps detachment- on our part as observer about what we have witnessed otherwise we appear to ourselves as callous. I do not know if that sounds right? I appreciate your contribution. Thank you.
Anyway, if beauty wasn't objective then I have to wonder what all those Art Appreciation classes, books on artistsic master pieces, etc. are all about. They should all be one sentence long: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." But they go on rather at length, usually. In fact, aesthetics is quite an interesting field of philosophy. Ultimately, if a thing lacks integrity (or completeness, "perfectio"), right proportion or harmony ("debita proportio sive consonantia"), and brilliance or brightness ("claritas") it cannot be said to be beautiful in itself. You could say that various characteristics of that thing were beautiful if they were examined in themselves and possessed those characteristics, of course, but if the thing taken as a whole didn't possess them, then no it wouldn't be beautiful.
I think you are making wholly sentient points and but I wonder is the beauty in a renowned painting a beauty derived through a technical flow and fluency in the medium demonstrated by the artist? In which case, the concensus is over that proficiency and not over the image itself? Perhaps not
I welcome your views.
Yes, it can be beautiful.
Moving as you said gracefully, flowing from one technique to another.
:~)
Rich, does this beauty always apply where there is flow and grace? Are there situations where flow and grace and technical flawlessness are amply displayed and yet the practice is ugly? Thank you for your thoughts
If yer not doing it for the beauty, there's something wrong.....
These are excellent clips! What was it about the practices of Bruce Lee in particular that generate such a concensus opinion of having witnessed something beautiful? Do you think his practice was always such even before he gained such a reputation of awe? Are we easily persuaded to beauty if everyone says a thing is beautiful? I think it is difficult with Bruce and because most of what we have is to a degree choreographed. I like watching his audition clips
Thank you for your thoughts. I am grateful to you
I typically go to sleep before her. I've woken up every day for many years now.
I know you really, really want to believe that. But the fact that every unique culture has its own opinion of what beauty is and that they seldom match with what we think it is, being largely based in an evolution of Greek sensibilities, simply proves my point. Beauty is subjective, at least to the culture that spawns the art.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Can there be beauty independent of the object or practice? I mean can beauty exist as a notion contained in the technical proficiency of the artist? Or must the two always go together? And is this merely evidence for the subjectivity of beauty?
Ever see when one of your students first "get's it"? That moment in time when they go from a kid in a class to an almost "martial artist." It's so beautiful. No other way to describe it. How about when so and so threw that jump/360 whatever-it-was and hit big Mike across the face so loud it sounded like beef slapping concrete? Beautiful, a sight (and sound) to behold. And the look on big Mike's face? Now, that was true beauty.
Remember the time Joey, no, not him, the other one, was sick and all the other students took turns helping him get through it all. Sweet beauty, that's what that was, brought a tear to your eye. Or how about the time Veronica slipped that left hook and positively floored that blond guy with an overhand right? It will always be remembered when the subject of beautiful punches comes up, I mean, how could it not? What about the Kata Sensei was doing before class on the day before Thanksgiving? Do you remember the guillotine Omar slapped on what's-his-face when what's-his-face tried a single leg?
Remember when John got promoted? When you swept Jack off his feet so hard he farted? When you finally got a gi you loved? That time your family watched you work out and you actually felt proud? The first time you ever beat that person you could never beat before? The first time your instructor actually remembered your name?
Martial Arts beautiful? Nah!
Wow, this is a beautiful post dear Buka. Thank you
What can I say. Except the blonde guy with the overhand right left himself totally open to Veronica. Perhaps it is a beautiful thing to see that guy cover properly from hereon. ANd while we are waiting for his next match we can admire his beautifully dislocated jaw
j/k. I think you are entirely correct, the beauty in MA extends beyond the techniques into the whole environment in which those techniques are practiced. Thank you for making these points and for doing so with such poetry yourself. I am grateful.
Second, it depends. Alot of things that people consider to be beautiful in terms of Martial Arts, I see as just being overcomplicated or weird. I am not easily impressed, and complexity/difficulty/prowess does not make it look any better to Me.
Thank you for your thoughts. And so what - if anything - would you in your opinion consider as beautiful MA practice? Thank you
Maybe, incidentally, the way that I think a P51 Mustang or F/A-18 Hornet are beautiful. They are machines designed for death and destruction, and its somewhat sick to find beauty in that, yet I appreciate their design and have a deep level of respect in their capabilities such that "beauty" is a word sometimes used to not-so-accurately-express the emotion they evoke. Such it is with the admiration of some martial artist's fluid movements and capabilities. Then there is also a point where what one practices really becomes a dance and stops being the real practice of combat designed to break human beings... there's a point where purpose changes meaning and meaning affects emotion.
I think that is a good example and both examples I entirely concur are beautiful pieces of engineering. So are you saying there is only beauty in these machines when they are stationary? In the case of the Hornet, it is only beautiful when it is not engaged in the pursuit for which it was designed? Similarly with MA, do you think there is no true fighting practice that is also beautiful? I appreciate that it is a subjective thing and but I like a good fight. I can see technical ability, fluidity, fluency with form and all of which I think when in synchronisation epitomise fighting beauty. What do you think? Thank you for your thoughts.
Hope you aren't a sound sleeper!
