Are combat sports looked down upon by MAists???

[AdrenalineJunky]

As some of you know, I practice muay thai. Muay thai, although certainly awesome system, is not what i'd refer to as an "art", per se. When i look at some of the forms (dances)/weapons work that my buddy mikey does--kempo, they are absolutely beautiful. But muay thai is like boxing, there's nothing particularly "artsey" about it.

Now, I know first hand that my training works. It has been tested both in the ring and out, several times. And I notice that a lot of "karate" tourneys have extremely light versions of sparring, if it could be called that, and it got me thinking.

A certain member on MT made a comment about why there are no 70 year old masters practicing muay thai, but there are in traditional type arts. And I wondered, why don't you see 70 yr. old football players, or baseball players, but you see a lot of 70 year old chess players. Then, i felt like a distinction was being made between traditional MA and combat systems.

I may not have a black belt, but i've been practicing long enough to have obtained one (almost 26 started at 14), particularly by mcdojo standards. It seems like people don't take combat system as serious as they should, because we, like, don't have belts to show off, or something. Traditional muay thai is not iska kickboxing, it is not K-1, and if you go up against a trained traditional thai fighter, or practitioner of any other combat system in the ring or otherwise, win or lose, you will get a fight. I've sparred (real sparring) with TKD, JKD, PFS, Kempo, and Shorin Ryu practitioners, as well as shootfighters and wrestlers, and i realized that 50% of muay thai's strikes can't be used in a situation where you don't intend smash the opponent's face, legs, or ribs.

More and more people seem to think muay thai is for "fitness", or "self defense". These fitness/SD programs are the mcdojos of the muay thai world. Sorry for the rant, but I've never bashed anyone else’s art. Quite the opposite, in fact. And i ticks me off to think that someone would be so superficial as to think that HIS art is the ONE! All forms/styles of MA are awesome; I envy mikey and his ability--and maybe that second stripe on his brown belt, a little. And he envies my ability to train and fight the way I do. My apologies again, and i swear I'm not trying to start a flame war.

AJ

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

okay, that was the most incoherent string of babbling i've ever done. . .and i apologize, yet again.

 

[Flatlander]

My apologies again, and i swear I'm not trying to start a flame war.

AJ

Hopefully, you don't get one. A topic that has been debated, but is difficult to nail down any concensus on, is the definition of Martial Art, and how it deviates from sport, self defence, combatives, or what have you. Personally, I would qualify Muay Thai as Martial Art. Why not? It's got form, tradition, application. Though perhaps there is a variance between MT ranking structure and other arts, so what? You know what MT has taught you, you know your capabilites, you understand its application - good enough.

I have never trained specifically in Muay Thai. Its just not my cup of tea. But that doesn't mean I disbelieve its effectiveness in striking range, quite the contrary. I think that the Muay Thai training methods with regards to striking are wicked superior to most others, and wouldn't really want to have to face a Thai fighter any day.

Good luck to you AJ in your relocation. I hope you find a place to train that suits you.

 

[TigerWoman]

Well, I am a little in awe of Muay Thai from what little I saw. Can you explain more about it? I think any form of fighting/self defense discipline where you have to be committed and passionate to learn and benefit from is a plus. Maybe you will be the first Muay Thai practitioner/master instructor, who knows? But it sounds like Muay Thai is intense and hard on the body. I should speak, my knees are killing me from TKD, but at some point we have to either use some reason in exercise or slow it down to get to that 70 yr. mark! What kind of conditioning do you do? Probably inane questions but since I don't know very much except a couple videos... ?? TW

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

thanks flatlander. this post is a little out of character. For some reason, the unnamed member just got under my skin. showed my *** a little, but hey, it happens.

AJ

 

[Flatlander]

:rofl:

Keep your pants up!

 

[Zepp]

My primary art is Tae Kwon Do, but I've always had respect for Muay Thai as a martial art in every sense of the word as I understand it. To see this art in action and not respect it is just self-delusion.

To speak of "combat sports" in general, MMA 's included, martial artists who think that these arts are less effective tend to be people who are inexperienced in them and uneducated about them.

My only beef with people who do practice such arts/sports is that they tend to look down on my training for similar reasons.

 

[Firona]

I am pretty sure if we are going to consider western boxing and kickboxing as martial arts we are going to accept MT as one too. I thinkt he catalyst to arguements about the martial arts such as this one is what people expect to see. When many people think of a MA they expect to see a 70 year old man jump from one rock, do three spin kicks and a triple back flip, and then land on another rock without making a sound. When these same people are confronted by a sport like MT they suddenly become disillusioned and have to say 'That's not a real MA!' because they want to believe in their 70 year old god of a ninja-master. Personally I see all martial arts as what they are: different. I have a friend who does Tai boxing (Not sure of the connotations and denotations of Tai boxing and MT so i won't assume they are the same until told otherwise) and I wouldn't consider him any less of a martial artist than any others that I know. I suppose everyone makes their own choices on this though.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Well, I am a little in awe of Muay Thai from what little I saw. Can you explain more about it? I think any form of fighting/self defense discipline where you have to be committed and passionate to learn and benefit from is a plus. Maybe you will be the first Muay Thai practitioner/master instructor, who knows? But it sounds like Muay Thai is intense and hard on the body. I should speak, my knees are killing me from TKD, but at some point we have to either use some reason in exercise or slow it down to get to that 70 yr. mark! What kind of conditioning do you do? Probably inane questions but since I don't know very much except a couple videos... ?? TW

Well, traditional muay thai is primarily knees and elbows, although our claim to fame is the thai round kick. . .fast and hard, leg crushing kicks. But the true secret to Muay Thai is simple. . .we train to fight. Conditioning the body to take these strikes is a long slow process, but one that i have been at for a while. I'm finally doing block/kick drills w/o pads. Basically you take your shin and ram it into another persons shin as hard as possible, they block it, step, kick right back. I'm finally past body conditioning w/pads. Now my partner throws the 18oz ers on, i give him a combination, and he kicks the crap out of me, uncontested. . .have mouth piece, though, lol. Workout is a lot like boxing workout: p-ups, leg-ups, leg-outs, running, roping, shadow boxing, drills, pad work, bag work and light sparring--until my partner gets a bit more experience.

No fancy stuff, all fast, solid strikes, delivered by (in theory) someone who can take much more than his opponent can dish-out.

Go to fairtex.com for more in and some videos. Some of the most brutal stuff this side of cage fighting. lol Thanks for not bashing me, it's appreciated.

AJ

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

wow, i totally expected to get slammed with this one. Traditional MA has some of THE most awesome forms/kata/dances, weapons work, and gymnastics displays i've ever seen. Grappling art have some of the most awesome take-downs/holds/bars i've ever seen. What i do is nothing fancy, which is why people misunderstand thai fighting. . .until they take a round kick to the thigh, and elbow to the face, and a steady stream of knees to the ribs. . .okay, i'm totally joking. But seriously, people underestimate the effectiveness of some "systems", in this case because there's not much to it. . .but a lot of training. You could master Muay thai in a year, no problem, but it'd take a few years and a lot of dedication--everyday--to train your body to fight in the ring. K-1 doesn't do it justice. . .nor do the cage fights. . .IMO they picked it up as a quick effective system that improves their stand-up fighting. You see the difference in thai-video of fights in Bangkok.

AJ

 

[Ippon Ken]

wow, i totally expected to get slammed with this one. Traditional MA has some of THE most awesome forms/kata/dances, weapons work, and gymnastics displays i've ever seen. Grappling art have some of the most awesome take-downs/holds/bars i've ever seen. What i do is nothing fancy, which is why people misunderstand thai fighting. . .until they take a round kick to the thigh, and elbow to the face, and a steady stream of knees to the ribs. . .okay, i'm totally joking. But seriously, people underestimate the effectiveness of some "systems", in this case because there's not much to it. . .but a lot of training. You could master Muay thai in a year, no problem, but it'd take a few years and a lot of dedication--everyday--to train your body to fight in the ring. K-1 doesn't do it justice. . .nor do the cage fights. . .IMO they picked it up as a quick effective system that improves their stand-up fighting. You see the difference in thai-video of fights in Bangkok.

AJ

I think I might have said something that struck a nerve. I have the UTMOST respect for arts/sports such as Mt, GJJ, Savate and Boxing. Do I think they are effective fighting arts? Hell yeah! Do I feel that they are also aesthetically pleasing? Most definitely!

The truth is that some arts are here for the long haul. Others need results now, because you are expected to perform in the ring or in competition. These "combat sports" (MAs nonetheless) give you really good results with using your body as a weapon, and arts like GJJ/BJJ/CJJ are arts you can practice with much efficacy until you are past 90; Helio proved this.

The problem I have with this new wave of so-called MMAs (even good Okinawan Karate or Kenpo is a MMA) is the way they diss the so-called tarditional arts. There have been numerous publications and videos where the NHB type will blast the ineffective nature of the "dancing" (kata/forms) that is the focus of karate and chuan fa. It is not a dance and they are very effective for their purposes if you do them corectly and understand what the "dance" steps mean or can mean.

Of all the folks I've seen do bagwork, the MT stylists strike it the hardest and they get maximal effect out of their workout. This is why cats like Wanderlei Silva can wax most folks in the ring regardless of style. There is nothing more powerful or precise than accurate and powerful Thai Boxing strikes. If they could use their elbows, knees and heads like they are taught, most ring fighters would never be able to withstand the onslaught.

I grew up in a place where the majority of good street fighters I knew were either wrestlers, boxers, MT guys or Filipino kickboxers. Most of the karate-ka sucked outside tournaments, many of these types being TKD stylists. The few guys I trained with in Shorin Ryu were pretty good, but a good kickboxer could still wax them. Most karate styles and karate-ka stateside really are not good at all. That's the sad truth. Most kickboxers here are actually pretty damned good. That's the facts.

Sorry if I was an A-Hole. I love the Thai MAs, Muay Thai boxing and Boran, Krabi Krabong and even the the art of Bando and the Burmese styles. I've seen them all and trained with many, many kickboxers, Thai or otherwise. The truth is arts like Kyokushin and Thai Boxing are great when you are young, and crippling when you get old, but not all the time. So I was just making a point about training for longevity vs. the glory of the minute. To each his/her own.

'Nuff Respect, bruh'!

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

'Nuff Respect, bruh'!

Right-on!, I appreciate your response, and actually know how you feel with respect to cage fighters and such. I've seen a lot of guys come in my gym and train for 3mos. just for a cage fight. The same guys are sporting "muay thai" shirts around town, some of them causing trouble left and right. My instructor has since decided to no longer train cage fighters. . .gives traditional muay thai a bad name. Sadly, muay thai, thai boxing, and other systems like krav maga are labeled as a quick fix for your ring-fighting or self-defense needs, and, because the workouts are so intense, cardio-kickboxing classes are springing up all over, thus continuing the misrepresentation of highly effective combat systems. Which, by the way, seem to be little known as it is. Again, I appreciate your response.:asian:

AJ

 

[OC Kid]

I took and fought Thai and have the up most repsect for it. I also trained and fought American Kickboxing and point fighting as well as traditional karate. There all good.
What I see happening is the exact opposite of this. I see the MMA guys bad mouthing the TMA. Its all good to me

" Cant we all just get along" Rodney King

 

[L Canyon]

I do some "light" thai training and I love it - and boy do those kicks to the thigh hurt! My problem is that instead of turning my thigh outward when receiving a shin kick, I turn away from it, and the kick gives my lower back a whiplash effect - I've had to go to the ER twice because of my stupidity!

But taking the kicks without pads (I am sure we don't kick as hard as you) has upped my pain tolerance, and I dig the knees and elbows, too. I'd love to learn a spinning back elbow (I hope that's the correct terminology).

Nice to see Ken on this thread as I always learn something from him.

I have also done Aikido and ju jitsu which are a nice blend with the striking, and plan on learning other arts (wing chun, more jj, kempo) as well.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Heh.... you want to know where the old masters of Thai boxing are? They are outside on the street selling water for 10 cents.... I live in Thailand and have met a few older dudes with like 300 fights, they have alot of knowledge and experience and are truly masters of the art, and Muay Thai IS a martial art, it just also happens to be a ring sport today in modern Thailand as well. But I have seen many retired fighters living a life of poverty, how can you be a master when you are basically just trying to survive day to day?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Heh.... you want to know where the old masters of Thai boxing are? They are outside on the street selling water for 10 cents.... I live in Thailand and have met a few older dudes with like 300 fights, they have alot of knowledge and experience and are truly masters of the art, and Muay Thai IS a martial art, it just also happens to be a ring sport today in modern Thailand as well. But I have seen many retired fighters living a life of poverty, how can you be a master when you are basically just trying to survive day to day?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Damian, I definitely envy your location. . .it must be awesome livin there! Plus in thailand, i'd expect that a more spiritual approach is taken to muay thai. Just a guess, could be wrong. Cheers!

 

[Damian Mavis]

Erm... not so much spiritual as traditional and respectful. Nowadays most camps are trained like a boxers gym, with a little more tradition and respect thrown in. But in the past it was trained with way more tradition and respect. Personally I hate to see an art lose its roots and change to suit popularity... kind of like Tae Kwon Do did!

Hey, Ong Bak (a muay thai action movie) is going to hit theatres in North Amercia sometime this year I think, definately go see it! At the beginning you see the lead doing some traditional type forms and drills for muay thai, it's very cool and beautiful.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[MichiganTKD]

Many traditional martial artists probably do look down on combat sport practitioners because they are seen as a bunch of thugs. In traditional MA, physical training is just one aspect. Also important are manners and eitiquette and how you live your life. Combat students are perceived as only caring about physical technique without caring about manners or life outside martial arts.
Obviously as you get older or advance in level, your priorities change. To a martial artist, physical technique becomes less important. Instead, teaching and producing good students and an honorable life become more important. To many traditionalists, combat students seem to be just thugs who want to step into a ring. Well, you can't step into a ring forever. What happens when you retire or get injured? You have nothing to fall back on. Much like an athlete who never finished school.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Great responses, folks. Thanks for the heads up Damian, I'll definitely be seeing that movie.

AJ

 

[DeLamar.J]

As some of you know, I practice muay thai. Muay thai, although certainly awesome system, is not what i'd refer to as an "art", per se. When i look at some of the forms (dances)/weapons work that my buddy mikey does--kempo, they are absolutely beautiful. But muay thai is like boxing, there's nothing particularly "artsey" about it.

Now, I know first hand that my training works. It has been tested both in the ring and out, several times. And I notice that a lot of "karate" tourneys have extremely light versions of sparring, if it could be called that, and it got me thinking.

A certain member on MT made a comment about why there are no 70 year old masters practicing muay thai, but there are in traditional type arts. And I wondered, why don't you see 70 yr. old football players, or baseball players, but you see a lot of 70 year old chess players. Then, i felt like a distinction was being made between traditional MA and combat systems.

I may not have a black belt, but i've been practicing long enough to have obtained one (almost 26 started at 14), particularly by mcdojo standards. It seems like people don't take combat system as serious as they should, because we, like, don't have belts to show off, or something. Traditional muay thai is not iska kickboxing, it is not K-1, and if you go up against a trained traditional thai fighter, or practitioner of any other combat system in the ring or otherwise, win or lose, you will get a fight. I've sparred (real sparring) with TKD, JKD, PFS, Kempo, and Shorin Ryu practitioners, as well as shootfighters and wrestlers, and i realized that 50% of muay thai's strikes can't be used in a situation where you don't intend smash the opponent's face, legs, or ribs.

More and more people seem to think muay thai is for "fitness", or "self defense". These fitness/SD programs are the mcdojos of the muay thai world. Sorry for the rant, but I've never bashed anyone else’s art. Quite the opposite, in fact. And i ticks me off to think that someone would be so superficial as to think that HIS art is the ONE! All forms/styles of MA are awesome; I envy mikey and his ability--and maybe that second stripe on his brown belt, a little. And he envies my ability to train and fight the way I do. My apologies again, and i swear I'm not trying to start a flame war.

AJ

Thai fighters are very tough, and practical fighters that get right to the point of taking someone out. Karate is more of a dicipline, attitude, and control thing. A thai fighter will beat a karate fighter most often because most karate fighters dont train in the manner they fight, that is all that thai fighters do. I think it is very important for martial ARTISTS to train in a very practical way along with the traditional, controlled, and disciplined way. And it is important for thia fighters to learn some control and discipline also.