Can Karate Stand a Chance Against Aikido?

gpseymour

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I'm really good at walking right in to people trying to hit like that, covering them up, putting them on a back corner and then asking them what it was they were previously trying to do. I am wondering (based on Wang's other thread) if I might be doing some sort of bastardized sticky/push hands thing. Probably very badly, but it does work. Those people can't fight, though. Try that on someone who regularly does any sort of full-contact, for real not just in name, and you end up with your face pushed in.
Agreed. The same goes for my 2" step-back. Used against someone over-reaching, it messes them up. They either over-extend (even more) and are easily toppled, or they get frustrated at missing and change tactics. With someone who knows how to make contact, a 2" step just means they hit me while I'm moving backwards, and maybe knock me down easier.
 

JP3

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I've seen those terms used so sloppily that I'm no longer sure I know what concepts they cover, JP. I find myself moving away from some of the vocabulary of my early training, though it seemed to serve me well back then.

Back to the point at hand, I think you're right.
People do strange things with words sometimes. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on that thought.

I talk about mushin all the time, but in reverse, as in "Stop thinking about it and just try to do it." I try to describe to people the 0.2 second delay for conscious thought inherent when you are concentrating on doing "something" rather than just letting it flow. Obviously, this isn't for beginners (at any given skill, it comes back even to advanced people trying to do something new and/or different).

But, that discussion is in itself a digression from where we were going.
 

JP3

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Agreed. The same goes for my 2" step-back. Used against someone over-reaching, it messes them up. They either over-extend (even more) and are easily toppled, or they get frustrated at missing and change tactics. With someone who knows how to make contact, a 2" step just means they hit me while I'm moving backwards, and maybe knock me down easier.
Yes. Being knocked down remains in the "not fun" category. And, with someone who knows what they're doing, that 2" slip back just invites the barrage that Drop was talking about elsewhere. Another "not fun" thing to experience and have to deal with. But then, neither is eating a superman punch because you (meaning I) assumed I could cover it up on my way in.


Better to get out of the way, as Miyagi-san instructed. Best way block punch, you no be there.
 

drop bear

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Which if I may... you also refer to as half-assing, if I'm getting your terminology right.

Yes and no your suggestion of mushin,being present or just wanting to be there. Is what I am describing here.

Half assing when I was describing that is when you think you are doing something technically right. But you are not really doing it.
 

TSDTexan

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Yes. Being knocked down remains in the "not fun" category. And, with someone who knows what they're doing, that 2" slip back just invites the barrage that Drop was talking about elsewhere. Another "not fun" thing to experience and have to deal with. But then, neither is eating a superman punch because you (meaning I) assumed I could cover it up on my way in.


Better to get out of the way, as Miyagi-san instructed. Best way block punch, you no be there.

Tai Subaki... up on the 45º counter punching/kicking the moment a committed attack begins.

His attack opens up gates.
 

drop bear

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What if you get a grouping of, one wants to fight and the other does not, but is open to the idea that he/she may not have the authority/ability to decide if there is going to be a fight or not?

Deescalation. Again you are better off using it to save them from a beating than using it to save yourself from one.

Makes your deescalation better as well.
 

drop bear

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Yes. Being knocked down remains in the "not fun" category. And, with someone who knows what they're doing, that 2" slip back just invites the barrage that Drop was talking about elsewhere. Another "not fun" thing to experience and have to deal with. But then, neither is eating a superman punch because you (meaning I) assumed I could cover it up on my way in.


Better to get out of the way, as Miyagi-san instructed. Best way block punch, you no be there.

This becomes a big issue with MMA with the smaller gloves the knock outs come quicker. So the theory is to hang back and be conservative in your approach.

This is interesting for self defence because once you have had a decent go with 4 ounce gloves not many people want to rush forwards bare knuckle.
 

oftheherd1

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I'm really good at walking right in to people trying to hit like that, covering them up, putting them on a back corner and then asking them what it was they were previously trying to do. I am wondering (based on Wang's other thread) if I might be doing some sort of bastardized sticky/push hands thing. Probably very badly, but it does work. Those people can't fight, though. Try that on someone who regularly does any sort of full-contact, for real not just in name, and you end up with your face pushed in.

I think one of the hardest things I had to overcome was the fear of moving into an attack. It just seemed counter-intuitive.
 
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JP3

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I think one of the hardest things I had to overcome was the fear of moving into an attack. It just seemed counter-intuitive.
Yes, it was. I completely agree. Then I figured out that, if I was just off the line that they were attacking me on as I moved in, I could often smother them for a second before moving back out. Once my slow-witted self realized what was happening, I started to stay "in" there longer and longer.

And... I also learned pretty quickly the types of opponents it's better to move back out on!
 

gpseymour

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I think one of the hardest things I had to overcome was the fear of moving into an attack. It just seemed counter-intuitive.
This is one of the things I've been trying to move to earlier in students' development. It's fairly common in my experience for an NGA student to mostly use retreating motions until about halfway through the kyu (colored belts) ranks. I've increased the early focus on learning how (and when) to enter.
 

oftheherd1

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Yes, it was. I completely agree. Then I figured out that, if I was just off the line that they were attacking me on as I moved in, I could often smother them for a second before moving back out. Once my slow-witted self realized what was happening, I started to stay "in" there longer and longer.

And... I also learned pretty quickly the types of opponents it's better to move back out on!

In the Hapkido I learned, as I am sure in yours, moving off line to one side or the other was bad enough, but to move directly into the attack where my speed and accuracy had to carry me through, was hard and scary. If you aren't fast and accurate, you put yourself where your opponent couldn't hope to find you, right in his sphere of power.

This is one of the things I've been trying to move to earlier in students' development. It's fairly common in my experience for an NGA student to mostly use retreating motions until about halfway through the kyu (colored belts) ranks. I've increased the early focus on learning how (and when) to enter.

That sounds like a good way to do. In the Hapkido I learned however, when it was time to use it we learned it. Another thing I had trouble with was from my TKD training; we always looked at the eyes. In Hapkido, we specifically watched the attack. Actually makes more sense I think.
 

gpseymour

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That sounds like a good way to do. In the Hapkido I learned however, when it was time to use it we learned it. Another thing I had trouble with was from my TKD training; we always looked at the eyes. In Hapkido, we specifically watched the attack. Actually makes more sense I think.
I don't know how Hapkido is organized, so this may be part of the difference. NGA is organized in formal "Techniques" (in quotes, because it's an arbitrary delineation). As a student learns a Technique, he also learns variations of it ("Applications"). Those Applications may be different from instructor to instructor. Many Techniques have both entering and exiting (to group them broadly) Applications. Most students simply stick to the exiting versions for a couple of years, rarely using the entering. Part of this comes from the teaching form used (nearly all are exiting movements), which students tend to practice more than any single variation. I've put more emphasis on the entering, both as a strategy/tactic, and in the teaching forms (I've changed several), to give students more practice on this aspect.

As for watching, we start with our center of vision on the upper chest. It moves more toward an attacking limb in many situations (as we move), with the principle being to keep it on the body rather than all the way out on an arm (so, not looking at a hand) - not always entirely possible, but that's the principle.
 

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This is one of the things I've been trying to move to earlier in students' development. It's fairly common in my experience for an NGA student to mostly use retreating motions until about halfway through the kyu (colored belts) ranks. I've increased the early focus on learning how (and when) to enter.
In our basic kata, we don't give them the option... we set it up so that they have to move forwards, "because that is where the kuzushi is..."

Of course there's other ways to off-balance people by evading back and to the side, but going in at the angle is the only one in the basic kata... so they get that training, whus hopefully the mindset, from the beginning.

Simple. NOT Easy.
 

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You understand that every style has roots that are hundreds or thousands of years old. "Traditional" has nothing to do with originality or age. It's an aesthetic.

The example that drop bear gave was a style that he created from scratch having no prior experience and developed over a twenty year time period. I would not trust such a style.
 

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@gpseymore and @JP3 - In the Hapkido I learned, we also learned 'techniques.' There were no forms. That was tried about 1985 or 1986, but it seems most of the Grand Masters were against it and it never took. I think it had to do with the fact that normally a technique was intended to be executed in such a way that the opponent was disabled and unable to continue. In the unlikely event that a technique didn't work effectively, we would still be under attack and simply use another technique to counter that.
 

oftheherd1

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The example that drop bear gave was a style that he created from scratch having no prior experience and developed over a twenty year time period. I would not trust such a style.

I understand where you are coming from. That would be suspicious to me as well, especially from Drop Bear ( :) ). But if he is using proven techniques or kata from another style(s), and as would seem so, he is making them effective, he might just have something going for himself, whether what he does works for anyone else or not.
 

gpseymour

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@gpseymore and @JP3 - In the Hapkido I learned, we also learned 'techniques.' There were no forms. That was tried about 1985 or 1986, but it seems most of the Grand Masters were against it and it never took. I think it had to do with the fact that normally a technique was intended to be executed in such a way that the opponent was disabled and unable to continue. In the unlikely event that a technique didn't work effectively, we would still be under attack and simply use another technique to counter that.
The way "techniques" are taught in NGA, there's a "Classical Technique" (what I call the "Classical Form" or "teaching form"). It starts from a specific attack, uses a specific response (entry, block, parry, slip, etc.) and a specific technique. As such, it's a form (in my book), even though it's only one technique, because it's designed to be replicated fairly exactly by each student, in order to practice the technique in question. Alongside those, we train "applications", which are the variations of the technique (where the "technique" is the finishing point), and how we get to them can vary broadly by circumstance.
 

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The way "techniques" are taught in NGA, there's a "Classical Technique" (what I call the "Classical Form" or "teaching form"). It starts from a specific attack, uses a specific response (entry, block, parry, slip, etc.) and a specific technique. As such, it's a form (in my book), even though it's only one technique, because it's designed to be replicated fairly exactly by each student, in order to practice the technique in question. Alongside those, we train "applications", which are the variations of the technique (where the "technique" is the finishing point), and how we get to them can vary broadly by circumstance.
@gpseymore and @JP3 - In the Hapkido I learned, we also learned 'techniques.' There were no forms. That was tried about 1985 or 1986, but it seems most of the Grand Masters were against it and it never took. I think it had to do with the fact that normally a technique was intended to be executed in such a way that the opponent was disabled and unable to continue. In the unlikely event that a technique didn't work effectively, we would still be under attack and simply use another technique to counter that.

The hapkido I learned had five forms from beginner/white belt up to 1st dan/black belt. My understanding of the forms were/was that it was a pattern to practice, which strung together a series of techniques as you've described above. It/they were basically a reproduction of a fight against multiples, but conveniently attacking one after the other from various directions. So, a training tool at its core.

Instructor: "Go over there and work on the 1st and 2nd forms, I'll be there when I'm done working with this beginner on how to stand up straight and tie their belt."
Student: "Yes sir!"

Like that...

Jerry, my thought on "kata" is the same as yours. It can be a single technique, a single move, or a combination thereof to get to one termination point, or a whole string of those done sequentially. In that sense, I consider things like rope duck-under and uppercut-hook drills to fit the definition of "kata."
 

gpseymour

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I consider things like rope duck-under and uppercut-hook drills to fit the definition of "kata."
Agreed. To me, there's a pretty vague difference between "drill" and "form", in some cases.
 

drop bear

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Agreed. To me, there's a pretty vague difference between "drill" and "form", in some cases.

Kata tends to be the source of the technique.

A drill tends to be a reflection of a technique.
 

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