Can anybody fight like this?

[Kwan Jang]

Agreed. I should note though that there are likely far more people out there who believe that the block and strike interpretation of traditional forms and Olympic style are effective means of self defense. I would never advocate using XMA or defending with my hands down (or at my hip) for self defense. My point is just that many other posters who have been critical of XMA are living in glass houses as they warm up their pitching arms to throw those stones.

P.S. - I do feel that using the Kyusho/tuite (using the Okinawan terms) applications of forms can be a valuable resource in training IF you apply it well in your live training and don't just run the patterns. Also, WTF TKD rules, while limited, can be of value as a specific drill in your training and I did compete in that sport on the state, national and even international level many years ago (for any who are offended at my statements about TKD on this forum).

 

[Tez3]

Agreed. I should note though that there are likely far more people out there who believe that the block and strike interpretation of traditional forms and Olympic style are effective means of self defense. I would never advocate using XMA or defending with my hands down (or at my hip) for self defense. My point is just that many other posters who have been critical of XMA are living in glass houses as they warm up their pitching arms to throw those stones.

P.S. - I do feel that using the Kyusho/tuite (using the Okinawan terms) applications of forms can be a valuable resource in training IF you apply it well in your live training and don't just run the patterns. Also, WTF TKD rules, while limited, can be of value as a specific drill in your training and I did compete in that sport on the state, national and even international level many years ago (for any who are offended at my statements about TKD on this forum).

How so? Are you saying we can't fight or our styles just dance around? Please elaborate as that came out as a tad insulting.
BTW I don't do TKD am just an interested dropper in.

 

[jks9199]

This is a performance art that requires athletic excellence and often strong martial arts basics to evolve to. How many posters here perform traditional forms? How many spar with their hands at their waist? It seems that many here assume that because the XMA guys can trick that they can't defend themselves or spar effectively. Yet, if a MMA/BJJ guy or kickboxer suggests that a TMA guy can't fight because "he wastes all his time doing worthless katas", many positions would change.

I am sure that there are more than a few examples of people out there who are into XMA that only train tricking and really don't put much emphasis on sparring or self defense training. Just as there are a few examples out there of TMA practitioners who only practice their forms and basics and neglect to chunk down the forms and practice them effectively for self defense nor spar. They just run their basics and patterns and consider themselves good martial artists. IMO, these types are basically on the same level, except at least the trickers are likely superior athletes. My guess is that the vast majority of XMA guys as well as TMA practitioners do basically the same thing: they divide up their training time into self defense, sparring, and forms work. Then they modify their techniques and application for which compartment they are working on.

We have a supplimental class at my school for "tricking" and many of the teens and young adults love it. We treat it like dessert and they have to finish their dinner first. In other words, they have to be solid on their curriculum. For us that includes TKD, Muay Thai, BJJ, and Escrima worked into a MMA format (which includes plenty of kickboxing, submission grappling, and NHB sparring). If they are training hard on this and want to come into the tricking class on Saturday morning or stay after class an extra hour on a weeknight and trick, it's fine with me. The ones who do this are mostly among the best fighters (at least for their age) in the school. They'll often work their traditional forms in the same sessions, too. We have a rule that they must attend a minimum of two regular classes a week to attend the tricking class, but this is rarely an issue. From my experience, the kids who want to put the work into this are the ones who want to live at the school anyways with very few exceptions.

When Cung Le wins a MMA fight, he likes to do his signature back flip in celebration. You may notice that he does not try to pull this, a webster or a flashkick against his opponent during the fight. OTOH, the practice he did to get his backflip down did nothing to take away from his ability or effectiveness as a fighter either in san shou or mma. In fact, it might be interesting to note that he is the fighter with the most varied striking arsenal in MMA history and so far has been quite effective with it.

I don't think anyone has said that people who do XMA or tricking are automatically unable to fight. In fact, several have noted the athleticism and physical skill required to do those moves may very well translate into some aspects of fighting...

But the time and effort spent developing many of those tricks, and the promotion of them over traditional martial arts can be frustrating, and can foster unrealistic ideas about the reality of combat. (So can training in traditional martial arts without really working to have realism in your training...)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding the thread title, "Can anybody fight like this?" Good question. I suppose that if anyone could, it'd be this guy, whoever he is. But since we don't see him actually fight, I guess I have to answer that I don't know.

Does your Tae Kwon Do Look like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JajvkPWZeDU

No; I practice taekwondo, which is never going to look like that. TKD has some flashy kicks, but taken as a whole, it really isn't all that flashy.

I was woundering if anyone practice like this guy...its pretty incredible.

Do you think these type of kicks are useful?

I sure don't practice like that. As for his kicks, if he can land 'em on a moving opponent, then I suppose they'd be very useful.

Daniel

 

[Garrett7]

Regarding the thread title, "Can anybody fight like this?" Good question. I suppose that if anyone could, it'd be this guy, whoever he is. But since we don't see him actually fight, I guess I have to answer that I don't know.


No; I practice taekwondo, which is never going to look like that. TKD has some flashy kicks, but taken as a whole, it really isn't all that flashy.


I sure don't practice like that. As for his kicks, if he can land 'em on a moving opponent, then I suppose they'd be very useful.

Daniel

At a certain point some people want to take there martial arts to a different level. SUre martial arts is great for self defense. But what it is for me, is a way of self-expression. Getting my body to do intricate movements in which no normal person could do. Being able to do kicks with grace and ease.

What this guy in the video is doing IS martial arts. Shaolin Monks do many of the same things. Do we call them gymnasts? No. Martial arts is like physical meditation. Becoming one with the movements. Most people think of martial arts in the whole self-defence thing. When they forget about the art aspect of it. What he is doing is art. Martial Art.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Tez,
My point is simple (regarding the words you highlighted). While IMO there is a valid use for forms practice in the martial arts and I feel that if used properly, they can enhance one's self defense skills, most practitioners don't train this way. They will dedicate a significant amount of their training time and energy in a "time buster" like running the patterns and basics without having ANY clue of how to effectively apply them. And even many who actually know the proper applications don't train them enough to be really effective or proficient with them. They do it because it's the "art" or the "tradition". Yet, many of these same people will bash the XMA people for roughly doing the same thing, but it's "wrong for them to do it" because it's "not part of OUR/my tradition." This is why I feel that "those who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones". I don't really know if this applies to you or not. Only you can awnser that for yourself.

As far as the other poster saying that nobody around here says that XMA guys can't fight or defend themselves; it's obvious you haven't read many threads on this topic. This has been a consistant undercurrent on threads like this. Another common theme has been that they spend way too much time wasting it on something as useless as tricking. I would agree completely IF we are talking about the tricking taking the place of core martial arts training. I don't see it as detrimental if it is a supplement for the young athletes who want to have fun doing it. Even for myself, I'd rather see a lot of my teen students spend their tricking time on rolling or sparring, but since this is extra time after regular classes and it helps keep them motivated, I see it more of a plus than a minus.

If someone is breaking down and working their forms and basics as drills for common self defense situations, like Stuart Anslow's or Exile's schools (I'm sure there are others around here as well), then they're forms/ patterns practice time is well spent. If they are just running patterns and basics thay they don't even know how to use, then IMO working palgwe 1-8 and Koryo -Il yeo is an even greater waste of training time (hey, I'm a TKD 6th dan among other things, feel free to fill in the ITF patterns, taegeuks or any others that you wish). In spite of "all the time wasted on traditional patterns", a lot of people who practice these patterns become very competent at sparring and self defense. I feel the same is true for many of the young people who practice XMA.

Regarding the OP, if you can pull this stuff off on an opponent in sparring, they don't belong in the ring with you. We have had some of our guys' like Kim Do land a webster (an axe kick out of a front flip) at an opponent in a point sparring match at the Battle of Atlanta. He and some of our other students will do this sometimes at point tournaments. In general, most of our guys have never taken point sparring too seriously ( a just for fun thing to do) as most of our curriculum is geared towards full contact. When some of the point "fighters" take themselves too seriously as how tough they are by "playing tag", some of our younger guys will hit them with aeriels, cartwheel kicks, ect. just to show them that they can. As far as self defense goes, these things are too high risk and too low percentage to ever do against even the least formidable attacker and any fool who tries this will get what he deserves.

I also suspect that much of the hostility towards the XMA crowd is rooted in the false image that it portrays to many young people and much of the general public. Who among us aren't asked when someone finds out you are a black belt :"Can you do a backflip?". You can be one of the greatest fighters in history and to the person asking the question, you MUST be an inferior martial artist and fighter than the second rate gymnast using a wire they saw in a movie. This has existed as long as "movie fu" and pre-dates XMA by quite a bit. It's not their fault, so I don't see any reason to take it out on them. Let them have their fun for at least as long as time will allow their joints to handle it. After a while it will hurt less to hit and be hit, than to land these tricks and they can get back to more serious business.

 

[Tez3]

Kwan Jang, your're talking about point sparring, the OP was asking about fighting. Can you fight doing this stuff, I doubt it. Can you point spar with it, well obviously yes according to you. Just how full contact is full contact to your guys?
I'm not saying I don't like it because it's not in my tradition etc. I don't like it because it's gymnastics and flashy, it's entertaining but it's flashy. could I use in in my fighting? No, it would be ridiculous.
Can they fight or defend themselves, yes as long as they use less acrobatics and use fighting skills. I'm sure they do have fun 'while their joints last' and you can talk down to us.
And no when people find out that I do martial arts they don't ask if i do backplis etc, they tend to ask how people I've knocked out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

At a certain point some people want to take there martial arts to a different level. SUre martial arts is great for self defense. But what it is for me, is a way of self-expression. Getting my body to do intricate movements in which no normal person could do. Being able to do kicks with grace and ease.

What this guy in the video is doing IS martial arts. Shaolin Monks do many of the same things. Do we call them gymnasts? No. Martial arts is like physical meditation. Becoming one with the movements. Most people think of martial arts in the whole self-defence thing. When they forget about the art aspect of it. What he is doing is art. Martial Art.

Okay, but you're preaching to the converted.

I in no way implied that what he did isn't martial art in any way or that he couldn't fight. I did say that I don't know if he can fight only because we don't see him fight.

In that, I feel that the title of the thread is a bit misleading: there's no fighting shown. If he can fight, I'd have been very interested in seeing his strategy, if he's a defensive or offensive fighter, and if he works any of the XMA moves into an actual fight (that would be impressive). But we don't see any fighting in the vid.

The body of the OP asked a different question: does your taekwondo look like that. And as I said, taekwondo isn't going to look like that. That sort of technique goes well beyond any codified taekwondo system, though I am sure that such techniques could be integrated into a taekwondoist's repitoir, though probably not mine, lol.

Daniel

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Very impressive physicality.
Excellent acrobatic skills.

Not something you'd use for fighting.

First guy... looked like he had some solid training underlying the flashy stuff. I personally didn't like the stationary way he was "fighting", but I know that's typical in certain styles.

Chloe Bruce... very talented, but more than half of that "kata" seemed more like a gymnastics floor routine than martial arts. Technique looked OK in the little bit of martial arts I saw -- but I've also seen here elsewhere, so I know she's got decent skills there.

The tricking, XMA, dramatic wushu, musical kata... all that stuff is great performance arts. The athletes doing them are HIGHLY skilled and very capable athletes. They're great performers. But what they do isn't what I do as what Brian VanCise refers to as martial science. I like that phrase; leave the "arts" to these people who want to be artistic. I try to be rational and scientific about answering the simple question: How do I most effectively prepare myself to fight for my life, and successfully apply that preparation? That answer may look so pretty... To use someone else's analogy -- it's like cars. The XMA/tricksters are in Lamborghinis or some other high end sports car. I'm a dump truck...

Good points Tellner and Jks9199,

Great athletic performance, great attributes, good gymnastic skills and a nice performance art. If you want to tag on martial to the performance art that is fine as well. XMA, wushu, musical kata performers, etc. all have to work very, very, very hard at what they are doing and it is beautiful to watch. When you are flipping through the air their is little room for mistakes. However what they are doing while physically impressive is not something that is martially practical in a personal protection situation. Usually in a real encounter it is simple skills, gross motor movement and a lack of complexity that wins the day.

 

[<_>]

Good points Tellner and Jks9199,

Great athletic performance, great attributes, good gymnastic skills and a nice performance art. If you want to tag on martial to the performance art that is fine as well. XMA, wushu, musical kata performers, etc. all have to work very, very, very hard at what they are doing and it is beautiful to watch. When you are flipping through the air their is little room for mistakes. However what they are doing while physically impressive is not something that is martially practical in a personal protection situation. Usually in a real encounter it is simple skills, gross motor movement and a lack of complexity that wins the day.

cgi does wonders to

 

[Tez3]

At a certain point some people want to take there martial arts to a different level. SUre martial arts is great for self defense. But what it is for me, is a way of self-expression. Getting my body to do intricate movements in which no normal person could do. Being able to do kicks with grace and ease.

What this guy in the video is doing IS martial arts. Shaolin Monks do many of the same things. Do we call them gymnasts? No. Martial arts is like physical meditation. Becoming one with the movements. Most people think of martial arts in the whole self-defence thing. When they forget about the art aspect of it. What he is doing is art. Martial Art.

You are saying that this is martial arts which nobody disputed, but you are missing the point. The question posed by the OP was can anyone fight like this? It wasn't a question on whether it's martial arts or martial anything, the bottom line is can they fight?

 

[girlbug2]

What this guy in the video is doing IS martial arts. Shaolin Monks do many of the same things. Do we call them gymnasts? No. Martial arts is like physical meditation. Becoming one with the movements. Most people think of martial arts in the whole self-defence thing. When they forget about the art aspect of it. What he is doing is art. Martial Art.

I realize that modern shaolin monks do that dance/backflip thing now, but what I'm trying to find out is, way back when the martial arts were being developed, were backflips part of the curriculum? Does anybody have historical references for shaolin monk backflips?

 

[seasoned]

I realize that modern shaolin monks do that dance/backflip thing now, but what I'm trying to find out is, way back when the martial arts were being developed, were backflips part of the curriculum? Does anybody have historical references for shaolin monk backflips?

Very good point. I can’t answer your question, but I do know self defense. Gap distance, make contact, brake their balance with grab and strike, take them to the ground with a throw or sweep. At the same time they hit the ground, the stomp is landing. At the time you apply your first technique of gap distance and you lose tract of them, then you do your back flip, once or twice will do, to get you out of there,:jediduel: in a hurry.

 

[BrandonLucas]

The bottom line to all of this is that XMA is not practical for SD. It's just not. We can spend all the time in the world debating whether the guy in the video is a true martial artist or not, or whether he's a great athlete or not.

I can bet anyone on this forum with 99.99% certainty that if the guy in that video were to get into a real fight in a bar, he wouldn't be turning the tricks that we see on that video. It appears that he does have some sort of martial arts training, and I would bet that he would use that to defend himself with, and the XMA portion would help out only in the fact that he has had to have a tremendous amount of conditioning, strentgh, and stamina to be able to do what we saw in that video. So, while he wouldn't use the XMA techniques in a real fight, he could use the strength and stamina training from it in conjunction with whatever SD training he's had.

Is XMA an art? Yes. Is it pretty? Yes. Do I wish I could do it? Yes. Are the flipping and jumping techniques themselves useful for defending yourself? No. Is there anything martial to what was in the video? Somewhat...there were some kicks and punches mixed in there, but it really wasn't enough for the whole performance to be called "martial".

It was just a performance. Now, it can be argued that TMA forms are performances, and technically, they are. But the techniques that are within the performance are based entirely in SD, whereas the techniques within the XMA performance are not based entirely in SD...some techniques are, but most are not.

It was posted in one of the other threads about XMA that it can be compared to WWE pro wrestling vs. Greco-Roman wrestling. And I think that's pretty much it summed up.

WWE wrestlers are performers and athletes. While I'm certain it would hurt to have a 300 lbs man land on my neck with his leg from 6 feet in the air, it just isn't practical to do in a real fight. And some of them do have backgrounds in Greco-Roman wrestling, but that isn't what people want to see on TV. WWE is all about what the public wants to see, not what would be effective.

Show a real fight between a thug and someone trained in a TMA and then show a movie fight between someone using XMA stuff and a stuntman. Which one is going to be more entertaining to watch, and which is going to be more effective to get out of the situation?

I'm not debating the guy in the video. In fact, let's assume that he isn't real, that we're just looking at a blueprint of XMA techniques, and not concentrating on the person performing the techniques. There simply isn't room in a real fight situation for tricking.

Now, I think that these guys that practice XMA realize that, and, like previously stated, add this in as "extra-cirricular", which is great...it's a great form of conditioning and adding flexibility. The problem is that it's still labled as a "martial" art, while there is no "martial" application there. It is an art, but it is a performance art that is made to look like a "martial" art. I just don't think that XMA is the appropriate name...it stands for Xtreme Martial Arts....I think it should be XPA, or Xtreme Performance Arts.

The reason I say this is that people often think that when they sign up for TKD, Karate, or any other TMA, they think that they're getting into what they see in the movies. Now, there are those of us who were inspired by the movies, but realized that it's a glammed up version of what we do...but there are others, and I've seen them, who really think that they should be flipping and cartwheeling around everywhere, and are really dissappointed when they learn that it's not what is being taught.

What it boils down to is this: If we were to ask this guy to defend himself against a real attacker using only XMA techniques, I'm fairly certain he would fail. If we were to ask this guy to defend himself against a real attacker using any means necessary, then he's got a better shot at winning the fight.

 

[jim777]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqqy4mIunM


While I admire their athletism and their ability to entertain I actually dislke this type of 'martial arts', I find it unrealistic for fighting and self defence. It's gymnastics and more suitable for films than actually being a martial art.

Chloe is worth a watch I suppose, but at the same time its disheartening that people think this is TKD.

 

[Kwan Jang]

For the most part I agree with what Brandon has said, but there is one part that I disagree with. And that is that the way most people train traditional forms is effective for self defense. I see the "block/punch/kick" interpretation of the forms as useless for self defense as XMA. Who spars or would defend themselves in a deep front stance with their opposite hand at their hip as they block or punch? If this is how you practice your forms and all you do is run your patterns like this, you are no more martial than the XMA practitioners in your practical application.

If, OTOH, you chunk down the sections of the pattern and use the same movements as grab, lock and strike against simple, common attacks, then you have a great resource. This creates a very effective syllabus for basically a RBSD curriculum and it should in many ways be trained and taught like a RBSD program, adrenal stress and all (that's what the kihaps are there for afterall). The problem is that a VERY small percentage of TMA people do this or even have much of an interest in doing so. Many are strongly opposed to doing this because it's not part of the "tradition" that was passed down to their instructor and then to them.

The simple truth is that without the kyusho and tuite applications, traditional patterns are no more effective for self defense or more "martial" than XMA. IMO, if you are one of the few who are working from your patterns as a learning tool in this manner, you have a right to complain about XMA not being martial; if you are among the majority who don't, then you are merely the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree to a point, Kwan Jang, though I think that some of the function of the poomsae/kata is for conditioning the body, such as the use of low stances, also for allowing the practitioner to learn to use techniques in a variety of stances. Thus while some aspect of poomsae may not have direct SD application, they do help SD indirectly.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

For the most part I agree with what Brandon has said, but there is one part that I disagree with. And that is that the way most people train traditional forms is effective for self defense. I see the "block/punch/kick" interpretation of the forms as useless for self defense as XMA. Who spars or would defend themselves in a deep front stance with their opposite hand at their hip as they block or punch? If this is how you practice your forms and all you do is run your patterns like this, you are no more martial than the XMA practitioners in your practical application.

If, OTOH, you chunk down the sections of the pattern and use the same movements as grab, lock and strike against simple, common attacks, then you have a great resource. This creates a very effective syllabus for basically a RBSD curriculum and it should in many ways be trained and taught like a RBSD program, adrenal stress and all (that's what the kihaps are there for afterall). The problem is that a VERY small percentage of TMA people do this or even have much of an interest in doing so. Many are strongly opposed to doing this because it's not part of the "tradition" that was passed down to their instructor and then to them.

The simple truth is that without the kyusho and tuite applications, traditional patterns are no more effective for self defense or more "martial" than XMA. IMO, if you are one of the few who are working from your patterns as a learning tool in this manner, you have a right to complain about XMA not being martial; if you are among the majority who don't, then you are merely the pot calling the kettle black.

Rather than write a very long post I would direct you towards Iain Abernethy and his excellent videos, books and articles. I have a video of his that gives you exactly what you can use the long front stance, fist to hip for and it's surprisingly easy to see how it works and I've used it.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/

I thnk oppositely to you, I think the majority of people on MT work with their katas/forms/patterns for fighting and self defence. The popularity of Iain's work here testifies to that. the people on here aren't stupid as perhaps you are unwittingly hinting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, I have been resisting this for a while now but I can no longer stop myself

Can anyone fight like this OK, maybe if you happen to have a pommel horse handy but how often does that happen

 

[dancingalone]

For the most part I agree with what Brandon has said, but there is one part that I disagree with. And that is that the way most people train traditional forms is effective for self defense. I see the "block/punch/kick" interpretation of the forms as useless for self defense as XMA. Who spars or would defend themselves in a deep front stance with their opposite hand at their hip as they block or punch? If this is how you practice your forms and all you do is run your patterns like this, you are no more martial than the XMA practitioners in your practical application.

If, OTOH, you chunk down the sections of the pattern and use the same movements as grab, lock and strike against simple, common attacks, then you have a great resource. This creates a very effective syllabus for basically a RBSD curriculum and it should in many ways be trained and taught like a RBSD program, adrenal stress and all (that's what the kihaps are there for afterall). The problem is that a VERY small percentage of TMA people do this or even have much of an interest in doing so. Many are strongly opposed to doing this because it's not part of the "tradition" that was passed down to their instructor and then to them.

The simple truth is that without the kyusho and tuite applications, traditional patterns are no more effective for self defense or more "martial" than XMA. IMO, if you are one of the few who are working from your patterns as a learning tool in this manner, you have a right to complain about XMA not being martial; if you are among the majority who don't, then you are merely the pot calling the kettle black.

I agree 99% with the sole comment that Okinawan karate systems usually have specific bunkai practice where the movements in a solo kata are explicitly explained in partner work. Depending on whether Sensei trusts you or not, you may be taught the more interesting applications that may include tuite and kyusho, although in my experience these are transmitted in small classes with 2-3 pupils at most. If you're only getting the block & punch applications, it's a good sign that your instructor does not know any more or that you're not in his trusted cadre of senior students.

As an example, I only learned the omote bunkai as a kyu ad even 1st dan, although I knew the more interesting stuff existed. I'll confess it was frustrating to hear lines like 'I'd tell you but I would have to kill you' from some of my sempai when I begged for even a hint of what a movement REALLY meant. It wasn't until I studied with my karate teacher for 7 years until he began to transmit the fullness of what he knew to me.

I have mixed feelings about that tradition of holding back knowledge. I'm not sure it's really relevant today and yet I find myself doing the same now that I teach myself.