But...Couldn't You Really Hurt Them?

Master Dan

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[quote=Bruno@MT;1321489]I've assisted in 2 womens self defense courses, and I have seen the same thing. Many ladies seem to be afraid to inflict physical pain. Our goal was to get them over that, and I was the 'bad guy' who attacked them during class so I have encountered this very thing.

I also witnessed firsthand what happens if a woman suddenly breaks through that mental barrier (possibly projecting a past experience at my persona). I had to make a real effort to not get injured because they came at me like wild furies, hitting, kicking and scratching me as if to rip me to pieces. At that point they didn't stop anymore.
Master Dan:
I have been teaching wemen's self defense for over 25 years perfecting it each year into a real course that can be used. First Self Defense is very complex and has many mental issues. I teach now in an area where women are prey and abused and I use realistic methods same for all sexes but one is the use of a foam club to simulate being hit and I was shocked at reactions from some of the women totally freaked out cringing screaming cowering if you even raised your hand or came at them let alone raise a club to hit them? This has give me a new skill because I now after working with behavior health professionals can spot and adult or child that has been abused very quickly and taylor the teach to help them. I soon realized these were women who had been beaten and abused from childhood to adulthood a common practice here even raped by thier own fathers.

Self defense first objective is to survive not win: The first mental aspect to be taught to the weak and vulnerable is that they must develope enough self worth to believe they are worthy and have the right!!! to defend themselves. No person can learn any techique that will do them any good if they close there eyes or cringe better to run if possible.

We start first with prevention the art of fighting with out fighting. How to increase your 100% of not being attacked, body language, local trip planning such as shopping or other activities, travel outside your area prevention planing. Peopel think that is being perinoid? why do we wear seat belts? because the statistics are that you have a % of risk of being in an accident and that risk % increase directly proportional to the area and activity. Violence is the same , unfortunately since the dramatic increase in violence we see in the media we have been condition to believe it is not real so a common personal reaction to that is to freeze and not believe it could be happening to us!!!!

From that point we then go into very basic moves which are.
1. Break away when help is close.
2. Disable disarm when help is reachable with in minutes.
3. Maime or Kill because there will be no help and your life is in depordy.

After this they are given simple material that they as a group can get together and practice and are taught how to practice in thier minds so it will become a tool they can use.

On the point 3 above most self defense courses fail to teach survival? I mean that each person must judge thier specific circumstances. If you are being raped solely for that purpose and by fighting back you might be killed better to be raped and live and learn how to fight back in court so they cannot hurt somone else. But if you are being transported to another area away form people your % of comming back is zero% know that and determine to die fighting rather than be led to slaughter!!!! The odds of you surviving by fighting for your life at that point is better than 50% much better than 0% if you allow yourself to be transported. These are FBI and Law Enforcement stats.

Last point nothing bothers me more that how most teach groin kicks? they are wrong and most men expect it and can survive it and after the attempt will truly want to kill or hurt you.
GROIN KICKS:
The proper way is using both hands grabbing the head or shoulders from the front or behind dosn't matter the issue is not using the foot but all of the center part of the shin between knee and ankle lifting the entire Scrotim and flattening the balls. You should be lifting them off the ground you hit them so hard and it is simple with balance. This guy will likely have to go to the hospital or may die!!

Close in Survival : anyone can pop an eye ball out it is so easy if taught right. It is not life threatening and the eye ball can be put back in later but I can tell you from experience it ends the fight right there.

Here he is holding one of his eyes on one hand and looking in two directions he just wants to find a doctor. Obviously this is a law suite if its just some guy but if you need to save your self do that first let attorneys sort it out at least your alive.
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Xue Sheng

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So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post. The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered. He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work. He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.

He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her. He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run." Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.

Her next reply to that, really shocked him. She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty? I mean, you could really hurt the guy."

So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.

I don’t want to derail this post but this is similar to something I experienced at a mini Qinna seminar given by Yang Jwing Ming.

He applied a lock and the guy fell to his knees and a woman asked

“So what do you do with him after you lock him?”

Dr Yang responded “You kill him”

She was shocked and thought that was just wrong

Dr Yang explained that this stuff was designed for war and you did not want to just leave the guy laying there to kill you as you walked by. But if you do not want to kill him you can kick him or punch him or do whatever you want. She also thought that was wrong since the guy was already locked, on his knees and would likely just give up at that point.

Dr Yang stopped talking to her and moved on to the next part of the lesson and she left
 

Deaf Smith

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So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Who is this 'we' Kemosabe? For you see I lean toward Jack Bauer’s point of view.

But as a few here have pointed out, yes 'social conditioning' is why. The Walt Disney/Three's Company/Mayberry RFD crowd have made this possible. The catch is the only ones being 'conditioned' are the people who are nice anyway and not a threat.

But those that live in the rough places are not conditioned to be nice anyway. And that gives them an advantage on the street.

And that is why the Visigoths were able to get to Rome’s gates.


Deaf
 

General_Tso

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I think that most good people, at their core are, well, good people. If you are not already out there mugging, stealing, raping, killing,etc. odds are you are a decent human being.

I dont think it's so much social conditioning, as it is being a human being. Being human should include the mentality of trying to help your fellow man, not hurt them. This could get very philosophical, but I think that's it in a nutshell. Training in a martial art is a tool to help you break down your preconcieved barriers to not hurt someone, when you need to. It's courage, conditioning and reaction training to get past the "I dont want to hurt someone". If you have time to think, you better have at least a fleeting thought of "Oh man, I really dont want to kill anyone", if you dont, you should take a look at buddhism. But your training will make you react, not think when necessary. The even stronger, primal instinct is one of self-preservation. And if you cannot break through the barrier of "not wanting to hurt someone else", this primal instinct of survival will kick in and you will become a bit less human, to do whatever is necessary to protect your life, or the lives of your loved ones.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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[quote=Bruno@MT;1321489]I've assisted in 2 womens self defense courses, and I have seen the same thing. Many ladies seem to be afraid to inflict physical pain. Our goal was to get them over that, and I was the 'bad guy' who attacked them during class so I have encountered this very thing.

I also witnessed firsthand what happens if a woman suddenly breaks through that mental barrier (possibly projecting a past experience at my persona). I had to make a real effort to not get injured because they came at me like wild furies, hitting, kicking and scratching me as if to rip me to pieces. At that point they didn't stop anymore.
Master Dan:
I have been teaching wemen's self defense for over 25 years perfecting it each year into a real course that can be used. First Self Defense is very complex and has many mental issues. I teach now in an area where women are prey and abused and I use realistic methods same for all sexes but one is the use of a foam club to simulate being hit and I was shocked at reactions from some of the women totally freaked out cringing screaming cowering if you even raised your hand or came at them let alone raise a club to hit them? This has give me a new skill because I now after working with behavior health professionals can spot and adult or child that has been abused very quickly and taylor the teach to help them. I soon realized these were women who had been beaten and abused from childhood to adulthood a common practice here even raped by thier own fathers.

Self defense first objective is to survive not win: The first mental aspect to be taught to the weak and vulnerable is that they must develope enough self worth to believe they are worthy and have the right!!! to defend themselves. No person can learn any techique that will do them any good if they close there eyes or cringe better to run if possible.

We start first with prevention the art of fighting with out fighting. How to increase your 100% of not being attacked, body language, local trip planning such as shopping or other activities, travel outside your area prevention planing. Peopel think that is being perinoid? why do we wear seat belts? because the statistics are that you have a % of risk of being in an accident and that risk % increase directly proportional to the area and activity. Violence is the same , unfortunately since the dramatic increase in violence we see in the media we have been condition to believe it is not real so a common personal reaction to that is to freeze and not believe it could be happening to us!!!!

From that point we then go into very basic moves which are.
1. Break away when help is close.
2. Disable disarm when help is reachable with in minutes.
3. Maime or Kill because there will be no help and your life is in depordy.

After this they are given simple material that they as a group can get together and practice and are taught how to practice in thier minds so it will become a tool they can use.

On the point 3 above most self defense courses fail to teach survival? I mean that each person must judge thier specific circumstances. If you are being raped solely for that purpose and by fighting back you might be killed better to be raped and live and learn how to fight back in court so they cannot hurt somone else. But if you are being transported to another area away form people your % of comming back is zero% know that and determine to die fighting rather than be led to slaughter!!!! The odds of you surviving by fighting for your life at that point is better than 50% much better than 0% if you allow yourself to be transported. These are FBI and Law Enforcement stats.

Last point nothing bothers me more that how most teach groin kicks? they are wrong and most men expect it and can survive it and after the attempt will truly want to kill or hurt you.
GROIN KICKS:
The proper way is using both hands grabbing the head or shoulders from the front or behind dosn't matter the issue is not using the foot but all of the center part of the shin between knee and ankle lifting the entire Scrotim and flattening the balls. You should be lifting them off the ground you hit them so hard and it is simple with balance. This guy will likely have to go to the hospital or may die!!

Close in Survival : anyone can pop an eye ball out it is so easy if taught right. It is not life threatening and the eye ball can be put back in later but I can tell you from experience it ends the fight right there.

Here he is holding one of his eyes on one hand and looking in two directions he just wants to find a doctor. Obviously this is a law suite if its just some guy but if you need to save your self do that first let attorneys sort it out at least your alive.
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Master Dan Scholten

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While I agree with alot of what you're saying, I'd like to comment on just one thing. When you were talking about the groin kicks. It would seem to me, that if someone was that close, the use of the knee would be a better option. If the defender is going to go thru the process of grabbing the head or shoulders, then show them the most effective way to grab, and start blasting away with knees. Of course, I wouldn't limit the groin as my only target. :D
 
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Who is this 'we' Kemosabe?


We= Anyone that gets attacked or enrolls in a SD program, and cringes, freaks out, or flat out refuses to do the 'dirty fighting' stuff, because it'll hurt the other person. :)
 

zDom

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The night I got my jaw shattered (and probably would have been beaten to death, had someone not come out of the bar and suggested they stop before they kill me),

I had put one of the three attackers down and stopped because I was afraid I had hurt him too badly. The other two helped him up while I watched and they rushed me, held me down, and beat me with a tire iron.



I don't believe in a "no mercy" mindset. There is certainly room for mercy once the threat is clearly ended.


What I believe in is, I MUST continue to do violence to my attackers until I am are SURE the threat is ENDED.

If the violence is simply a mean look that is an outstanding outcome. If one of them dies to ensure you live, so be it.

It isn't just about defending myself. I feel that it is a duty to society to discourage violent people from imposing their will on peaceful members of society.

If I let them do successful violence to me or my family or friends (or even innocent strangers, under the right circumstances), chances are they will do it again to ANOTHER peaceful member of society.

If I prevent them from doing violence to me, chances are it will discourage them from doing it again in the future.
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

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I feel Personally (so I don't put this on anyone else) if a violent criminal comes across me it is a duty to destroy him to the furthist extint I can get away with under the law.

If I just give him my money and he walks on, he will do this again and probably to someone who has not studied the arts for years or without any real fighting exp. I will be passing the problem down to someone weaker than myself. I dont want some person dead because I let the scumbag slip out of my killbox.

I tell my kids of my admoration for the rattlesnake.

For the most part, Rattlesnaky just wants to be left alone to hunt vermin, sit in the sun and mate when it's time. he is not looking to bite people for the fun of it.

He see's you coming and he shakes his rattle and if you are smart you walk away and no one gets hurt.
You keep coming or worse try to pick up Rattlesnaky he bites you.

At that point you deserve what you got, he warned you, you did not heed it so your death is on your head not his.

I don't mess with people, I try to be as civil as I can with everyone I meet but if I hurt, maim or kill you you were asking for it because you had to have laid your hands on or threatend me or mine.

If you punch me, I am out to break that limb, I am out to take you out of the fight entirly. I am not out to kill you but if in the engagement you slip and beat your head on the ground , resulting in death then it's still your fault as it would not have happend if you just let me be.

The answer is in nature, nature is full of creatures who kill those who try to harm them or threaten them.
 

Deaf Smith

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Have you guys ever seen the show, 'My Name is Trinity'?

Well in it a bunch of bandits harass pacifistic Mormons, but with Trinity and his brother, Bambino, there helping them.

The bandit chief lines up all the men and then slaps them in the face, one by one. Each Mormon accepts the slap and does not retaliate until they get to Bambino. Each time the bandit slaps Bambino, Bambino hits him back, and each time he is slapped he hits back HARDER. It finally dawns on the bandit someone here would actually fight back and they leave.

I do believe in being peaceful (55 years so far without any real fights) but I also believe strength, and the willingness to use it, does matter.

Deaf
 

Master Dan

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While I agree with alot of what you're saying, I'd like to comment on just one thing. When you were talking about the groin kicks. It would seem to me, that if someone was that close, the use of the knee would be a better option. If the defender is going to go thru the process of grabbing the head or shoulders, then show them the most effective way to grab, and start blasting away with knees. Of course, I wouldn't limit the groin as my only target. :D

First the knee is also expected and the grabing happens slightly after the shin kick is being done and nooooo the knee dose not have the same vertical lift to spread the scrotim and flatten the balls. The knee varies greatly in its angle of strike and and it requires more skill. The shin/leg strike does start farther away. The person also needs to learn various ways to set it up depending on position and other factors.

No person I don't care one lesson or 8 is going to be able to out fight anyone under fight or flight stress but Prevention and survival education can first keep them out of trouble and increase their chances of living.
 

Ken Morgan

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We don't even beat around the bush in iaido or kenjitsu, you walk up to your opponant and you kill them. Period. End of story. Its a ********** sword after all.
 

teekin

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My mothers gift to me was music and unconditional love. When I lived with her, we lived in communes or with bands or with eccentric European rellatives. Where ever I lived and with whomever I lived I was indulged, cherished and loved.
My fathers gift to me was toughness and an understanding of how the real world worked. An iron will and the mental tenacity of a DC9 Cat. I played both Ringette and Hockey on winning teams with reputations for being rough and physical. Because I was allmost allways the smallest player I was also the most lethal. I had no problem using my skate blades to chop out yours, tripping with my stick, elbowing in the solar plexus, chopping at ankles or an all out fight. In my world there is no such thing as "fair" in a fight. Anything goes till someone is unconcoius or in an Ambulance. That is a "fight". Anything else is sparring. An Odd gift but usefull.

Lori
 

Bruno@MT

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If you punch me, I am out to break that limb, I am out to take you out of the fight entirly. I am not out to kill you but if in the engagement you slip and beat your head on the ground , resulting in death then it's still your fault as it would not have happend if you just let me be.

Stellar advice.... if you want to go to jail.
You may think it is not your fault, morally, but realistically there is a good chance that you will go to jail for manslaughter if the other person ends up dead.

Your opinion does not matter in a court of law. And if you teach this to other people who don't know better, then you do them a disservice.
You do not live in your idealized world. You live in the real world where there are tons of law and case law and a complex judicial system.

Depending on the circumstance, you may or may not get into trouble. You had better hope that there were eyewitnesses to what happened, and you had better pray that their story absolves you from the blame. Because if they say something like 'that one guy shoved the other guy, and then the other guy slammed his head into the concrete' or if they simply arrived and saw you standing over the body... then you will be very sorry indeed.
 
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MJS

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First the knee is also expected and the grabing happens slightly after the shin kick is being done and nooooo the knee dose not have the same vertical lift to spread the scrotim and flatten the balls. The knee varies greatly in its angle of strike and and it requires more skill. The shin/leg strike does start farther away. The person also needs to learn various ways to set it up depending on position and other factors.

No person I don't care one lesson or 8 is going to be able to out fight anyone under fight or flight stress but Prevention and survival education can first keep them out of trouble and increase their chances of living.

Here is what you said:

"GROIN KICKS:
The proper way is using both hands grabbing the head or shoulders from the front or behind dosn't matter the issue is not using the foot but all of the center part of the shin between knee and ankle lifting the entire Scrotim and flattening the balls. You should be lifting them off the ground you hit them so hard and it is simple with balance. This guy will likely have to go to the hospital or may die!!"

What you just said in this post, isn't the impression that I got from what you're saying now. As for the knee taking more skill....not sure how that is, due to the fact that its a pretty simple movement. Note, that I also said that there are other targets, aside from the groin. Of course, I also wouldn't discount the knee to the groin. I've done it, and its had wonderful results. :) If you're in clinching range, you have to use tools for that range. The situation and target availibility will dictate what we can/can't do.

As for your last part....you're preaching to the choir dude. LOL. My point was simple....teach the women simple, effective easy to do things. Dont recall saying that they had to stand there, trading shots.
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

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Stellar advice.... if you want to go to jail.
You may think it is not your fault, morally, but realistically there is a good chance that you will go to jail for manslaughter if the other person ends up dead.

Your opinion does not matter in a court of law. And if you teach this to other people who don't know better, then you do them a disservice.
You do not live in your idealized world. You live in the real world where there are tons of law and case law and a complex judicial system.

Depending on the circumstance, you may or may not get into trouble. You had better hope that there were eyewitnesses to what happened, and you had better pray that their story absolves you from the blame. Because if they say something like 'that one guy shoved the other guy, and then the other guy slammed his head into the concrete' or if they simply arrived and saw you standing over the body... then you will be very sorry indeed.

My attitude towards such situations have kept me out of the Hospital or worse. It is within the law here to break an offending limb if they are still engaging you and if he does slip and die, this is a good state to have that happen in.

A good friend and student used an icescrapper in self defense in Alexandria about 10 years ago, hitting his assailant in the left eye, blinding him in that eye for life.

My buddy got off scottfree, never charged buit the scumbag was for his crime and got to go to jail blind in one eye (I wonder what his fellow inmates used him for?).

Most area's of Virginia are very conserrvitive minded about criminals and no one cares if they get hurt or dead in the commishion of their crimes, no one who matters that is.

I had a situation 2 months ago, In the altercation I bit him in the face and put my finger in his eye to roll his head back and butted him with my head in his temple. You know what the cops did about it?

They came , they saw, they put it down as mutual combatants as he was in my yard and a few of them laughed about how stupid it was for him to physically engage a man at home and one was tickled that he messed with a self defense instructor.

And if an assailant is killed, you say nothing to the cops, you talk to your lawyer. When you call 911, you ask for all emergency services, tell them someone is hurt and then SHUT YOUR MOUTH.
 

Em MacIntosh

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As far as excessive force is concerned, I know I'm not alone when it comes to not having much ability to make a choice about what I'm going to do or how I'm going to do it in a life and death situation (which I consider them all to be). During the adrenaline dump my priority is to stop my knees from shaking and I rely on muscle memory to defend myself. In my experience there's very little respite for clarity to make any choices or conscious thought so running the risk of prosecution is almost always worth it unless you have the oportunity to choose a less lethal method. If you have the mental capacity to do so in the tussle or have the attacker immobilized, great, you get a choice.
 

teekin

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As far as excessive force is concerned, I know I'm not alone when it comes to not having much ability to make a choice about what I'm going to do or how I'm going to do it in a life and death situation (which I consider them all to be). During the adrenaline dump my priority is to stop my knees from shaking and I rely on muscle memory to defend myself. In my experience there's very little respite for clarity to make any choices or conscious thought so running the risk of prosecution is almost always worth it unless you have the oportunity to choose a less lethal method. If you have the mental capacity to do so in the tussle or have the attacker immobilized, great, you get a choice.

Hmmmmmmm. I found that in those particular times when the poo really hits the fan, ( examples; during a dog attack, before and during being hit just below the hips into the boards from an oblique angle, waking up during `the accident`) , time slowed down and I was able to see more what was going to happen and I had More time to make choose what I wanted to do. In the case of the dog attack I removed my hands from the dogs mouth and jammed my forearm into his mouth. ( less tendon damage in my teenage mind and he couldn`t bite my puppy if he was biting me, rolled in a ball and didn`t get my neck snapped from an illegal hit, surrvived only slightly crazy from accident. ) These were all times when according to my brain I was in danger for my life. Thoughts.

lori
 

bribrius

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it is a fine line between self defense and being pissed off they attacked you.

Don't escalate a situation. Avoid them.

i say when they are crawling away or laying on the ground, and you find yourself going after them, You are now preventing THEM from ending the situation.

you could kill them. i dont care who you are. Anyone can kill anyone. They could kill you too. I don't care who you are.

Never underestimate someone or a situation.

i prefer not to enter any situation in which life is put in jeopardy. Mine or theirs.

Tough guys or girls don't exist. Just alive or dead ones.

tazer, mace, firearm. All wonderful christmas presents.

peace
 
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fighter_x

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I think that the pitfalls of the social conditioning of "do no harm" is grossly overlooked in many schools. Mindset is a dividing line between standardized martial arts dojo training and self defense. If you intend to ingrain what you are taught to use within your self defense repertoire, then you have to be comfortable in the fact that you intend to injure and escape. In some instances there may be mere moments to react, and I for one, wouldn't want my brain muddled with thoughts of "wait, will I get sued", or "gee, that might hurt him". I hope I would focus on the task at hand which is my survival, and using the means, whatever they be, to insure it.
54b2e298-d945-4ef4-8095-50bb7a9e0f2b
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MJS

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I think that the pitfalls of the social conditioning of "do no harm" is grossly overlooked in many schools. Mindset is a dividing line between standardized martial arts dojo training and self defense. If you intend to ingrain what you are taught to use within your self defense repertoire, then you have to be comfortable in the fact that you intend to injure and escape. In some instances there may be mere moments to react, and I for one, wouldn't want my brain muddled with thoughts of "wait, will I get sued", or "gee, that might hurt him". I hope I would focus on the task at hand which is my survival, and using the means, whatever they be, to insure it.
54b2e298-d945-4ef4-8095-50bb7a9e0f2b
1.03.01

My thoughts exactly. I understand that we live in a very sue happy world and it seems that many people are thinking about that stuff, rather than their well being. Now, I'm not saying that its not important to be aware of what you're doing, but when someone is trying to rob my wife and I, the last thing I'm going to worry about at that moment is whether or not I should protect the well being of me and my family.
 

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