But...Couldn't You Really Hurt Them?

[MJS]

So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post. The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered. He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work. He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.

He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her. He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run." Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.

Her next reply to that, really shocked him. She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty? I mean, you could really hurt the guy."

So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.

 

[Chris Parker]

Simply, years of social conditioning.

My Chief Instructor, quite a number of years ago, was attending a martial arts event with a lady who herself was involved in the martial arts industry (running a martial arts supply store, from memory), who started the night on the way to the event by asking if she could ask him some questions. He replied that of course she could, and she remained hesitant, stating that the questions may shock him. He answered that nothing she could ask about martial arts could shock him.... so she asked him "Why do you teach people to kill?" Needless to say, that's not exactly what my Instructor thought he was doing, and explained from his point of view exactly that!

I myself was brought up with my mother telling me things like "You can always talk your way out of a fight", and "If you have to fight, okay, but don't ever kick. It's not nice". Remarkably, when I asked if I could learn Ninjutsu (at the tender age of 10...) I was told unequivocally no, it was too violent! So I asked if I could learn Karate instead (with my thinking that it would be a good starting point, and I could learn Ninjutsu when I was older... which I did, starting at 16), and got an immediate yes!

Some things are just too firmly wired in to reason away from for some people.

 

[WC_lun]

Most people through thier entire lives are told and trained not to hurt others. It becomes ingrained. I'm not sure it is a bad thing, but in cases where you need to overcome that training, then yeah it can become an issue.

Even in the military soldiers still hold onto that core belief of not hurting another. Studies have shown that many soldiers will fire thier weapon high so as not to actually hit someone, even when they are in a real combat situation.

For a normal human being, really hurting another person is a traumatic experience. It should be. Even if that person had just attacked you, it should not be an enjoyable experience to injure them. Unfortunately, many preditors rely on that to get away with doing the thing they do. The delay in reaction that a person's concience causes can be a huge hurdle in defending oneself.

 

[Big Don]

Social conditioning for sure. I think hard contact sparring helps to desensitize us to hurting bad guys, I mean if we smack our friends and fellow students for fun, we're much less likely to care about hurting some stranger...

 

[Master Dan]

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.

I got one worse for you in our larger town a senior driving a ice cream truck has some worthles young banger come up and take his own gun from him pistol wip him and steal his money in front of dads and children!!!
I went on the radio pissed off and said seniors have totally become targets of oportunity in this country and seniors need to have guns and shoot the punks. It is not going to get better untill people who commit violent crimes against inocent unarmed people get hurt or killed on the spot.

I was sitting with a group of Korean masters we hosted and my master eating in a traditional korean soup kitchen very hot need towels and in walks a veitnemese gang to rob the place.
I am sure the owner would have prefered just giving them the money compared to smashed furniture and very large windows. I am sure the insurance company would have prefered just giving the money to them but those ***** will never rob that place again maybe nobody else either. Worse yet they managed to rob a swatt van of all its weopons and amo but this cuaght them before they had a chance to do something awful.

I later found this out because I owned the same type truck and was having it alarmed to protect my tools and the company that did the work told me the cops never wanted it to reach the media.

I have to admit the first thing I think of is about hurting the other person due to todays litigous or political issues untill I see a gun or knife or they are going to do life threatening harm to a defensless person then I have no concience

 

[Bruno@MT]

So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Simply, years of social conditioning.
...
Some things are just too firmly wired in to reason away from for some people.

This is exactly why I teach my girls from the age of kindergarten that if someone is trying to hurt them, it is ok to hit back. And as soon as they are old enough to grasp the concept that some people are really nasty, I will teach them to be thorough. I also tell them regularly that fighting is only for self defense, and that if they have to defend themselves, we will not be angry but stand behind them come hell or high water.

Some time ago my oldest told me when I picked her up at the after school care that a boy in her class had hit my youngest daughter (who is just a toddler). And when I asked her what she did then, she told me that she had kicked the boy hard. I praised her and gave her a reward afterward.

One of the ladies who run the place heard me and while she didn't give me 'the look' I knew she disapproved. So I just told her that I knew this was not what we are supposed to say, but that this was how I was raising them when it comes to defending themselves.

 

[K-man]

Her next reply to that, really shocked him. She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty? I mean, you could really hurt the guy."

So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.

Interesting to remember a recent post on what constitutes 'self defence'. If your response is 'reásonable' then legal action against you is unlikely to be successful. Respond using more force than necessary, as was espoused by some in the previous post, and be prepared to pay. :asian:

 

[girlbug2]

There was a time when women were raised never to fight under any circumstances. In my experience many are still raised that way, even though times have changed somewhat.

It's hard to overcome hundreds, maybe thousands of years of culture that tells females it's not ladylike to defend herself. It's also hard to overcome being raised with what I believe is a misinterpretation of the biblical admonishment to "turn the other cheek". But, it can be overcome! I am a living example of that.

 

[seasoned]

Excellent thread MJS. Out side of the dojo I taught many women self defense 8 week courses. Inevitably there was always a portion of the class that got squeamish when it came to the first four techniques we covered. Ears, eyes, nose and throat strikes. They were more interested in avoidance then confrontation. The best students were the ones that had experienced some sort of encounter or near miss with danger. The others sadly were there to have some fun and do some karate. You could almost pick the potential victims. As other posters have mentioned, as kids we are taught to do no harm, big mistake.

 

[aedrasteia]

MJS

do you teach MA or self defense for women? Have you encountered this personally?
thanks, A

 

[Slipper]

I agree that its due to social conditioning. I think it's two-part though. I believe that not only are females taught to be gentle and forgiving, etc, but also that there is still some degree (being taught) of males being superior to females. Perhaps it's not so prevalent now, but I know in our family that my father was definitely the head of the household. The most important child in our family was my brother.

Religion teaches us that men are to be "over" women and women's virtues are based on gentleness, kindness, love, forgiveness, etc. I don't think it's surprising that it's difficult for women to be assertive against a male when raised in that type of environment.

I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree that its due to social conditioning. I think it's two-part though. I believe that not only are females taught to be gentle and forgiving, etc, but also that there is still some degree (being taught) of males being superior to females. Perhaps it's not so prevalent now, but I know in our family that my father was definitely the head of the household. The most important child in our family was my brother.

Religion teaches us that men are to be "over" women and women's virtues are based on gentleness, kindness, love, forgiveness, etc. I don't think it's surprising that it's difficult for women to be assertive against a male when raised in that type of environment.

I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.

Indeed, we've been sociologically conditioned about the gender roles. Yet there is the change in thought about women becoming tougher and willing to fight back, partially from media fiction of tough as nails women (i.e. Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner, Xena, The Bride (Kill-Bill), Foxy Brown, et al.) and more women are getting into MA or taking SD courses, as well as more women being given combative roles in the military.
Yet the stigma is still there and that damming thought of "wouldn't really want to hurt the guy" or the attacker could sue for damages and all of that B.S. Many of those I refer to them as socio-pacifists (pardon the pun). Some men are just as guilty of this sheeple thinking.
Only time will tell when the change to more larger population of aggressive response type women will be around and the "weaker sex" becomes a myth.

 

[Big Don]

I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.

Well, and to have a good time...

 

[Bruno@MT]

I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.

Sadly for the US, it is becoming suicide for teachers and care givers to even hug or kiss a kid if it needs comforting. And playing tag is a problem in many schools as well. If anything, people will get even more awkward about contact than they already are.

Luckily, we are not yet following that trend (not saying we don't have other problems though...). You know, before I got here on MT, I didn't even know that there were people in martial arts who would have problems with physical contact with the opposite sex. I didn't even consider it, just like one doesn't think about fish being afraid of water.

That said, my best friend is a grade school teacher and he knows that he is walking on egg-shells when it comes to dealing with girls because a reputation can be broken with 1 careless or vicious remark. But that's another topic imo.

 

[xJOHNx]

I see where you are coming from. My best friend recently joined my Art and you see that he's less "vicious" about learning the techniques as well as looking weirded out when we discuss real world voilence. He's more relaxed, than again he never fought in his life.

Than on the other side I know some guys who would snap you in half in a new york minute.

Much depends on the character of the person and the intention/focus he trains with I think.

I consider myself a calm nice guy, but when someone attacks me, I'll have no mercy. That's the way I've been taught both on the streets, kindergarten as well as the dojo. But than again, so is my character.. So I don't know if it's the thoughtpatterns in me or just the way I trained all these years..

 

[Slipper]

Bruno - actually, that could be two totally separate topics - one regarding the caution that men must take around younger kids and the topic about false accusations. Women hold a lot of power in that regard.

I'm sure you've heard the following scenario - a mother/daughter become separated at a store. You see a lost little girl who is scared and looking for her mother. Do you get involved and talk to her? Do you walk her to customer service (which is usually near the exit of the store)? If the mother saw you walking with her daughter (towards an exit), would she assume you were there to help?

But, as you say, another topic.

I think physical contact is a big part of why females can be more hesitant in attacking. Guys are more prone to roughhouse, tackle, wrestle with each other. Ladies don't really bond in such a manner. I won't claim to know how much difference it makes between a guy hitting another guy as opposed to hitting a woman. I think a woman hitting anyone is going to be difficult because she hasn't 'touched' someone else as much. Maybe it's just me though. I remember having a lot of difficulty getting used to simply being touched in class. It was very different. I'm used to it now, but in the beginning, I struggled with others just walking up to me and grabbing my arm, hand, neck, etc.

 

[MJS]

MJS

do you teach MA or self defense for women? Have you encountered this personally?
thanks, A

I've been teaching and training for quite a long time, so yes, I have encountered this type of situation in the past. I haven't taught a womens SD class, however, I have had women inquire about various SD scenarios, etc.

As I said, this thread was taken from another forum.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I've assisted in 2 womens self defense courses, and I have seen the same thing. Many ladies seem to be afraid to inflict physical pain. Our goal was to get them over that, and I was the 'bad guy' who attacked them during class so I have encountered this very thing.

I also witnessed firsthand what happens if a woman suddenly breaks through that mental barrier (possibly projecting a past experience at my persona). I had to make a real effort to not get injured because they came at me like wild furies, hitting, kicking and scratching me as if to rip me to pieces. At that point they didn't stop anymore.

I could probably have beaten them had I wanted to by using my training, experience and strength, but that was not the point. I was supposed to be a thug using only his size and weight. I never looked so thoroughly beaten up as the 2 times that happened.

 

[MJS]

Rather than address every post seperate, I'll lump my reply in 1 post, and try to hit on a few points.

I do agree that it is a social thing. I was talking about this thread and the one that led up to it, with my wife, the other day. It was funny, because we both agreed that growing up, we were taught not to hit others, be nice, and so forth. Of course, on the flip side, dont be someones punching bag either. LOL.

As for how much force to use...I agree, that you need to assess things on a case by case basis. For me to use my keys to poke someones eye, may be frowned upon, due to my height, weight, martial arts background, in other words, didn't I have any other options, vs. a smaller female, not as strong, etc. Be that as it may, would I do that? Absolutely, if my life was on the line. Lets see...his eye, my life....I'll deal with the other stuff later on.

I've encountered this situation in class as well. I've had parents and students alike, cringe at some of this stuff. My reply was simple: as martial artists, we need to be able to vary our level of defense. Sorry, but a teenage girl, is probably going to stand a better chance of survival, by kicking the guy, who's trying to pull her into his car, in the balls, rather than trying to put a wrist lock on him.

I agree that not every 'attack' is going to require us to take drastic measures, but the fact remains, the martial arts involve contact and they involve dirty tactics. If someone is that grossed out or offended by that, then IMHO, maybe the martial arts are not for them.

As far as the story that I started this thread off with....sure, throwing something at the person, to serve as a distraction, is a great idea, but think about it. You did nothing to hurt the guy or even remotely stop him. You just threw away, literally, the keys to your car. Now you're stuck.

A few people mentioned womens SD classes. I have mixed feelings on those. I think they're good, because they expose women to some basic SD, but the downside of that is, a) once they leave the class, theres a good chance they'll no longer practice what was taught, and b) I've seen some WSD classes in which some complicated stuff was being taught. Things such as locks. Yes, they are effective, but I'll refer back to A. An 8 week class, IMO, isn't enough time to effectively teach someone how to do finger and wrist locks. Follow the K.I.S.S. principle. Keep It Short and Simple. Were I to teach a WSD class, I would take a few of the most common attacks that they'd be most likely to face, show some simple techs., and have them drill the hell out of them, over and over and over, from various situations. My goal wouldn't be to overload them in that 8 weeks, with 1,001 SD techs., but instead show them a few solid things, and have them work those....repeatedly. Boring? It may appear to be on the surface, but I'd be willing to bet by the end of those 8 weeks, their confidence level would have gone up a few notches.

 

[Master Dan]

[
One of the ladies who run the place heard me and while she didn't give me 'the look' I knew she disapproved. So I just told her that I knew this was not what we are supposed to say, but that this was how I was raising them when it comes to defending themselves.[/quote]

Darn I wanted to print your proverb or prayer but it did not come up on the quote. Its great I am going to do it in Caligraphy and hang it on the wall. Thanks for your posting it is right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ダン師
Master Dan Scholten

http://nometaekwondoacademy.yolasite.com/