Breaking contact if grappled

[Deaf Smith]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

 

[Blindside]

Is this a tackle? Single leg? Double Leg?

And are you asking about how to do this BEFORE you hit the ground? You say "start to go to the ground" but you also say "get back up."

If you are "starting to go to the ground" he already has hold of some kind, unless he just bumped you and you are both falling over. For a good answer, you will need a pretty specific question, this one is very very general.

 

[exile]

Is this a tackle? Single leg? Double Leg?

And are you asking about how to do this BEFORE you hit the ground? You say "start to go to the ground" but you also say "get back up."

If you are "starting to go to the ground" he already has hold of some kind, unless he just bumped you and you are both falling over. For a good answer, you will need a pretty specific question, this one is very very general.

Yeah—I think we need a few detailed scenarios here, Deaf. My own first instinct would be an attack on his eyes or on his neck vertebra, but it all depends on just what he's trying to do...

 

[jarrod]

speaking very generally:

push his face away & off center. your other (we'll say right hand) posts on the floor, & you slide your right foot towards that hand so you can get up while retreating. this assumes that he hasn't established a position or a pin on you, & that extending your arm isn't making you too vulnerable to a lock.

these are nessecarily very vague, general instructions.

jf

 

[Aikicomp]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

As said before VERY vague indeed however I will offer a solution:

From your desciption of events it seems that he has a hold on you and you are going to get taken down, if this is the case and you have no Judo or BJJ or wrestling back round......it's only a matter of time............. your done, all you can do is hope he or she (yes, I said she, I have girls who have beat men with their Judo skills) doesn't hurt you too bad so you can get some sort of grappling training.

Seriously, People with Judo, BJJ, wrestling, grappling experience are very skilled and if they get a hold on you it's very difficult to get out of it, even with proper training..... without proper training your chances of victory are very slim.

Yours in Budo
Michael

 

[Sandstorm]

Generally....


.....I'd sprawl. Keep your hips tight and put pressure on the back of their head, or grab their head and twistin a downward motion to the left or right. If he's in a full clinch, drive elbows into the colar area and push away. Keep moving but nothing flamboyant. Keep movement minimal and consistant, but also keep it random so he can't find your rhythm for his sweep/takedown.

This is a very general question and these are a miniscule selection of basic answers. I hope they help

Kind regards
John

 

[Andrew Green]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

No offence, but your approach to the puzzle is completely wrong.

If you want to learn to deal with wrestling, you need to incorporate wrestling, and people that no how to wrestle into your training. Otherwise what you end up doing will be ineffective and likely not work against someone that actually has those skills.

Flip it around, suppose a wrestler with no striking experience asked you, "If a kickboxer tried to hit me, what should I do?" It's a very broad question, and not one that can be answered. If you give them something they go back and try to mimic kickboxing techniques and defend against them. But the techniques they are using, and as a result training against are extremely poor and the counters would fail against a person with fairly limited kickboxing.

Standing up when you have a superior wrestler on top of you is very difficult. If you watch some pro fights you should notice one trend, the guys that are able to get back up fairly consistantly when taken down are also very accomplished wrestlers.

 

[Aiki Lee]

well yeah, but on the other hand you don't want to play his game.

There are always vunerable targets, the temple, the carteriod (sp?) artery in the neck, the solar plexas,inside of the theigh (sp again? I'm awful at this) and everyone's favorite the groin. Strike these targets while being grappled, but don't just go for one, go for multiple targets high and low.

 

[MJS]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

My suggestion...have grappling in your toolbox. IMHO, if you really want to defend against something, you need to understand what it is you're trying to defend against.

I think to better answer your question, we need to know how the grappler is connecting with you.

 

[just2kicku]

In a fight if you're not a grappler I would think you don't want to play his game.
I'm a big guy(6'4" 250lbs) and I would do whatever it takes not to go to the ground. There's usually something you can reach. Whether it be raining elbows to his spine, gouging an eye( and I mean getting your finger in there and trying to rip it out) grabbing hold of his junk and squeezing till it pops, or grabbing his throat and squeezing till he runs out of air. There's always something. If your close to him there's always biting. Popping an ear drum, but I wouldn't try to grapple with him

 

[bowser666]

Let's make some assumptions here, chances are you are not going to be tackled by a BJJ black belt in a random street encounter. Second, if it is a street encounter then anything goes. If you are asking if it is Joe Tough Guy with no MA training and tackles you to the ground then how do you get out of it ?

Sounds like there are lots of assumptions being made that the person is going to be trained in some ground fighting art. Chances of that are slim actually. I would suggest taking it from there.


My suggestion would be to use reasonable force. If you feel your life is in danger than use lethal force. You have to make that judgement.

 

[thetruth]

well yeah, but on the other hand you don't want to play his game.

There are always vunerable targets, the temple, the carteriod (sp?) artery in the neck, the solar plexas,inside of the theigh (sp again? I'm awful at this) and everyone's favorite the groin. Strike these targets while being grappled, but don't just go for one, go for multiple targets high and low.

If you didn't sprawl and are on the ground you are in troubled if they are skilled. It's easy to say go for the eyes or the groin but when you do you are putting your limbs at risk by reaching for these targets and as soon as you do chances are you will be caught in a lock of some sort. You would have to be extremely lucky to have this work.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Deaf Smith]

Guys,

Sorry if it was vauge.

Say you are being tackled. They might be going for your legs or hips. And say they made contact and you are falling with them but he does not yet have a solid hold.

The idea is, once they dive for you and make contact, how to keep them from getting in. And yes, break contact with them.

Eye gouge? Kick them off you. Windpipe grab? Hair grab?

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Thanks,

Deaf

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Guys,

If you are in a fight and a grappler lunges at you, connects, and both of you start to go to the ground. How would you force the grappler off you and break contact so you could get back up (and get up FAST.) I don't mean get him in a hold, just get him off you asap before HE gets started on getting you in a hold.

Thanks,

Deaf

As someone who has been a stand up fighter for almost 2 decades, with 16 years being spent in Kenpo I was curious how I would fare against the grapplers, other then the ones I had faced already. I took some BJJ classes to test myself and fell in love with the SPORT aspect of BJJ.
Please note that SPORT is capitalized for a reason. I feel that regardless of who is coming at me, the weapons I was taught in kenpo are more then adequate to deal with them. Finger strikes, soft tissue attacks, pinches small joint manipulation, etc.
Now I have been training for going on 4 years and am a purple belt in BJJ, and I advocate it to any stand up artist, but I think the vast majority of grapplers, even the higher level grapplers are simply studying a sport version of the art, they train constantly for the RULES, and find a hard time compensating for the lack of them in a street fight. That being said a grappler intent on hurting you can probably move past a fairly major eye injury or groin shot, or throat shot or broken finger and try to apply a submission, or ground and pound. Which is a big reason I advocate training on the ground for any stand up artist. I personally feel that a combination of environmental awareness, a good sprawl, and training in the ground game will give a stand up fighter all the tools he needs to avoid going to the ground to begin with, and the dirty self defense skills will help get off the ground if it happens.

 

[searcher]

I love the idea of an eye gouge, if life and limb hang in the balance. You also have the option of popping an eardrum or you could pull the ear off(yes it is that easy).


I am fairly confident on the ground, but I like to dictate when the fight goes to the ground. For this reason, I work with my students who are also high school wrestlers on sprawling and avoiding the takedown. If you don't have one or two of them around, I suggest you seek out a wrestling program to start working with.

 

[geezer]

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Deaf

There are a lot of "anti-grappling" approaches that have been developed to help the stand-up fighter deal with a grappler and not have to play his game. But, if that's the way you want to play it, you better train those techniques with some decent grapplers or you'll never know if they'll work.

Personally, I've seen some decent "anti-grappling" techniques, but learning basic BJJ is high on my "to-do" list. My older brother was a state champion wrestler, and years of getting whaled on by him showed me that when a good grappler has you off balance, it's awful hard to land good punches. In fact I learned that after a certain point, it was usually better to go to the ground on purpose than to struggle to stay upright and then get slammed down. Now I'm in my mid fifties, and grappling may not seem like the safest art to get involved in, but it's got to be better than the alternative--being totally ignorant of how to deal with it!

 

[MJS]

Guys,

Sorry if it was vauge.

Say you are being tackled. They might be going for your legs or hips. And say they made contact and you are falling with them but he does not yet have a solid hold.

The idea is, once they dive for you and make contact, how to keep them from getting in. And yes, break contact with them.

Eye gouge? Kick them off you. Windpipe grab? Hair grab?

Alot of people are not strong enough to grapple against a fit young man who knows. So they need a strategy to stop the other guy from getting them into a lock and get off the ground.

Thanks,

Deaf

Many people will say go for the eyes, groin, etc., and thats all fine, however, IMO, I feel that if someone only has those tools to rely on, they're going to be in trouble, if those tools fail. That is why I'm an advocate of back up plans. If A doesn't work, go to B. If that doesn't work, then C, etc., etc.

To expand on the question though...my first thought would be to say sprawl. If that is successful, then from that position, you should be able to fire off some knees and possibly a kick. If that fails, and you end up going to the ground, then I would say do your best to recover and get into the best position possible. What do I mean by this? If the guy starts to mount you, do your best to not let him get too high up on you, otherwise, if he makes it up under your arms, it'll be twice and hard to bridge him off.

If you can get him into guard, then do so. From there, you should be able to control him somewhat.

I know from past threads, some feel that going to the ground is akin to having to look for a submission. Not the case at all. That won't be on the top of my list...getting back up will be. Of course, if a sub. presents itself and it'll aid in my escape, of course I'd take it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Here's the deal.

If you are on the ground, and it turns out the person has ground skills, and you try to play their game, you're toast unless yours are better.

Even on those occasions when they ARE better, the amount of time involved in playing choke chess reckons without the possibility of his having friends who will walk up and kick your brains out, or him discovering your weapons, or simply him getting lucky by having more time to fight you.

This isn't to say they don't have their place: if a relative or friend has had too many to drink and decides to take on the world, you have a way to contain them until they lose interest or see reason.

Where strictly self defense scenarios are concerned, you will be much better off if you keep it simpler.

Let's say you're in someone's mount, you haven't put your guard round them in time.( that's usually how it goes even amongst untrained people, it's a common way to end up so we'll use it as the main example).

at this point, anytime you extend an arm towards them to try anything, you run the risk of an arm lock.

Keep your arms too tight to your body too long to ward off strikes and do nothing else, you run the risk of a choke.

Trying to turn one way or another to avoid blows, he may be sensitive enough to allow this and now without intending to or realizing it, you've given them your back and are now at risk for a rear naked choke which is an absolute ***** to escape from once sunk in.

On the street, I don't think it wise to assume his sporting habits are ingrained and you can trick him into releasing by tapping out( but it HAS happened so give it a shot if you feel there's time or a chance to).

But here's the thing, is, in order for him to effect anything HE wants to do, he first much reach his hands toward you.

when this happens, grab hold of a finger/thumb before he can close his grip, and snap it back till it comes off.

He'll let go.

 

[Andrew Green]

easy as that then? Just grab a finger?

Sorry Andy, but it won't work. When someone is mounted on you, and pounding your head into the ground, grabbing at fingers is a very bad idea.

I agree with the "don't play the other guys game" idea, but it doesn't always work like that. If you are mounted, you are playing that game. If you want to learn how to get out the best place to look is at what the people that end up in that position every time they train do, they do it for a reason.

There is no easy way out, you are in trouble if you are mounted by a superior grappler.

But suggesting you should not do any of the things other grapplers do to get out is like suggesting that if you are in a sword fight with a swordsman you should drop the your sword and try to punch him, otherwise you are "playing his game". You already are, and chances are you will lose at that point, but don't throw out what is your best shot, even if it is a long shot given the skill difference for something with even less of a chance.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

easy as that then? Just grab a finger?

Sorry Andy, but it won't work. When someone is mounted on you, and pounding your head into the ground, grabbing at fingers is a very bad idea.

I agree with the "don't play the other guys game" idea, but it doesn't always work like that. If you are mounted, you are playing that game. If you want to learn how to get out the best place to look is at what the people that end up in that position every time they train do, they do it for a reason.

There is no easy way out, you are in trouble if you are mounted by a superior grappler.

But suggesting you should not do any of the things other grapplers do to get out is like suggesting that if you are in a sword fight with a swordsman you should drop the your sword and try to punch him, otherwise you are "playing his game". You already are, and chances are you will lose at that point, but don't throw out what is your best shot, even if it is a long shot given the skill difference for something with even less of a chance.

Boy, I wish I would've known that when I got mounted and got him off me with a finger lock into a wrist lock and rolled out.

Granted, this wasn't in the street for blood, and granted I didn't actually break his thumb, and granted he was no BJJ black belt, but to say out right it "won't work" is kind of on par with saying outright "Don't do what grapplers do"( which, BTW, I agree with, that learning some is a very good idea) is it not?