Thoughts on ATA TKD?

puunui

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That's a curious statement, considering you're not affiliated with the organization. Are you just interested enough in TKD as a whole that you try to learn everything you can?

Yes, I try to obtain all the books on the martial arts (not just taekwondo books) that I can. It is something I started doing as a kid.
 
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Makes sense. Even though I am in no way affiliated with the ATA and probably never will be I've researched the organization quite a bit and have been trying to find their DVDs.
 

Earl Weiss

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I have a friend who runs a competing dojang. A while back he solicited my advice on adding exactly this kind of material to his curriculum. After some research and experimentation, he ended up taking the Combat Hapkido route. .

Been to a Combat Hapkido Seminar and bought the DVD's I like their approach although at least at this point the material is limited compared BJJ for groundwork. At one point Pelligrini was paired with Carlson Gracie jr. for some seminars.
 

dancingalone

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Been to a Combat Hapkido Seminar and bought the DVD's I like their approach although at least at this point the material is limited compared BJJ for groundwork. At one point Pelligrini was paired with Carlson Gracie jr. for some seminars.

I attended one last year myself and had a good time. A significant number of the attendees were police officers or some other form of law enforcement professionals. That seems like a pretty good endorsement to me as presumably these people would make use of the skills taught at some point on the job. Likewise most of the people I interacted with had substantial training elsewhere before getting involved with Combat Hapkido.
 

dancingalone

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They're easy enough to get. My sister has sold her kids' dvds on Ebay and she said Ebay is full of them. While they are relatively slick (they were made in the nineties I believe for VHS and then the tape was transferred to DVD with a few menu improvements), they suffer from the usual martial arts videos problems where they really are just demos of the material at hand.
 

puunui

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They're easy enough to get. My sister has sold her kids' dvds on Ebay and she said Ebay is full of them. While they are relatively slick (they were made in the nineties I believe for VHS and then the tape was transferred to DVD with a few menu improvements), they suffer from the usual martial arts videos problems where they really are just demos of the material at hand.


There is an entire ATA DVD set for sale on Ebay right now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATA-Way-Tra...233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48434b9d39
 

hungryninja

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The DVDs for ATA black belt (1-4 dan) are much better than the color belt DVDs (more professional, higher quality).
 
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Thanks y'all for the heads up on the DVDs.

$160 for that DVD set? Seems high for an eBay price.

I'd kind of like to get some of their annual World Championships DVDs they produce. Seems like that could be really interesting.
 

hungryninja

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Those DVDs are well-produced. Competition-wise, it doesn't show much...just highlight clips here and there. The majority of it covers the opening/masters ceremony. There are trailers/previews online that you can see, and you will get an idea.

Thanks y'all for the heads up on the DVDs.

$160 for that DVD set? Seems high for an eBay price.

I'd kind of like to get some of their annual World Championships DVDs they produce. Seems like that could be really interesting.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Maybe you can correct my misconceptions, but from what I've seen of hapkido grappling, it's more focused on Aikido-style joint locks and throws then what I've described.
Sorry, I missed your question entirely.

From what I have seen of aikido, hapkido techniques are pretty similar. Note, I do not train in aikido, so I am sure that there are major differences that are not immediately apparent from just watching a little of both, inspite the fact that they share the same kanji.
How much actual groundwork is there? Do you learn anything about fighting from guard, how to sweep, how to pass guard, chokes etc?
In the hapkido that I have learned, most of the groundwork is geared towards getting back up, not on BJJ or wrestling style ground grappling. Hapkido has sweeps and take downs. I am not familiar with the BJJ/wrestling terminology, so I cannot answer your questions about 'fighting from guard.' I have a WHA video that details much more groundwork that I have learned. It looks more like what I saw at a BJJ seminar than anything that I was ever taught.

The reason that I said what I said was because hapkido already has an integrated striking and grappling curriculum without the need to be grafting one style onto another. Additionally, hapkido generally has a well developed weapons curriculum.
 

puunui

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From what I have seen of aikido, hapkido techniques are pretty similar. Note, I do not train in aikido, so I am sure that there are major differences that are not immediately apparent from just watching a little of both, inspite the fact that they share the same kanji.


Also, your Hapkido lineage (which is my original lineage too) has Japanese Aikido blended into it. So that may be a reason why your Hapkido and Aikido looks similar. In the mid 1960's, an Aikido practitioner from Japan went to Korea and visited many Hapkido dojang. He wanted to do an exchange with Hapkido practitioners, but the only one who was interested was GM MYUNG Jae Nam. GM Myung (no relation to GM MYUNG Kwang Sik) exchanged techniques with this Aikido practitioner (who can tell me his name?) and eventually was appointed the Korean representative for the Aikikai.
 
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So I don't get it . . . I was actually under the impression that hapkido from the beginning was a fusion of TKD and aikido.

If that's not the case, was there always grappling from hapkido, and if so, where did it originally come from?
 

puunui

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So I don't get it . . . I was actually under the impression that hapkido from the beginning was a fusion of TKD and aikido.

With the single exception of GM MYUNG Jae Nam's branch, Hapkido has nothing to do with aikido, or taekwondo for that matter. Hapkido has way more kicking techniques than taekwondo, and hapkido kicks are delivered differently. At least they used to. But there has been so much borrowing from each other that there are similarities today for sure.


If that's not the case, was there always grappling from hapkido, and if so, where did it originally come from?

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
 
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Interesting. You learn something new every day, I guess. I have believed for years that hapkido has always been TKD + some aikido-based grappling.
 

puunui

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Interesting. You learn something new every day, I guess. I have believed for years that hapkido has always been TKD + some aikido-based grappling.

The father of Hapkido (GM CHOI Yong Sul) and the founder of Aikido, (UESHIBA Morihei Sensei) learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu from the same teacher, TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. So in that sense, Aikido and Hapkido are cousins.

The kicks in Hapkido were developed by two people, GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong who were classmates at GM Choi's Yukwonsul dojang. GM Ji said that he learned kicks from a taoist monk, who was a friend of the family. This monk taught GM JI "Taekiliyon", not Taekkyon. GM Ji also got kicking ideas from other places, including the bible. GM Ji is very proud of his kicking techniques, which revolutionalized kicking, not only in Korea, but the world. For example, the spin hook kick was originally a Hapkido kick, which taekwondo and other arts borrowed. Same thing with ax kick, which was originally a hapkido kick.
 

Chris Parker

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The father of Hapkido (GM CHOI Yong Sul) and the founder of Aikido, (UESHIBA Morihei Sensei) learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu from the same teacher, TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. So in that sense, Aikido and Hapkido are cousins.

Just to clarify, this isn't universally accepted. The source for such claims seems to be Choi himself, who claimed to be a "house boy" (sometimes going so far as to say he was an "adopted son") of Takeda Sokaku, and he learnt Daito Ryu from Takeda himself. However, the records of the Daito Ryu show no record of Choi's name, there is no corroborating evidence of Choi living with Takeda, let alone being an "adopted son" (and, to be sure about it, the Japanese are some of the most meticulous record keepers around, and the idea of adopted sons is very common, so wouldn't be something "hidden"). Ueshiba Kisshomaru, son of Ueshiba Morihei, founder of Aikido, has said that his father (Ueshiba Morihei) mentioned a young Korean person, aged about 17 or 18, who attended one or two seminars of Daito Ryu, and when training, treated Ueshiba as the senior (which would not be the case for an "adopted son" who trained as long as Choi claimed to). Kisshomaru went on to say that the young Korean continued to keep contact with Ueshiba Morihei for a while afterwards as well, which presumably included the two training together on occasion.

If we then add in the fact that "Hapkido" is really nothing more than the Korean pronunciation of the Japanese characters for "Aikido", I personally find it more likely that Choi had a little exposure to Daito Ryu (through one or two seminars, not formal training, and certainly not long term training), and then continued to have contact with Ueshiba, to the point where he realistically was actually more training in early Aikido (which was closer to Daito Ryu in application, anyway), and then wanted to introduce, or create, a Korean form of Aikido.

There are some rather large gaps between the approach of Daito Ryu and Hapkido, the lack of formal kata taught in a progressive fashion, instead having a range of techniques that are then taught as separate components, put together at the practitioners discretion, which, again, is closer to the way Aikido was trained under Ueshiba Morihei (it was Kisshomaru who re-organized Aikido in the AikiKai in order to give it structure and a form of progression, but still not the classical kata form expected of a Daito Ryu approach).

So Daito Ryu? Yeah, to a degree. But more realistically, only in a removed way. Early Aikido is where you should be looking.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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So I don't get it . . . I was actually under the impression that hapkido from the beginning was a fusion of TKD and aikido.

If that's not the case, was there always grappling from hapkido, and if so, where did it originally come from?

Hapkido was being developed around the same time that the five original TKD kwans were opening up after the war and doing what they were doing. Taekwondo wasn't even being called taekwondo at that point. General Choi would bring in a hapkido master to facili So yes, there was always grappling in hapkido. Choi Yong Sul's stated origin for the grappling is Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu. There are people who dispute this origin, but regardless, striking, grappling and joint locks have always been a part of hapkido. Much of the high kicking curriculum was developed by Kim Mu Hong and Ji Han Jae from what I understand.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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In the hapkido that I have learned, most of the groundwork is geared towards getting back up, not on BJJ or wrestling style ground grappling. Hapkido has sweeps and take downs. I am not familiar with the BJJ/wrestling terminology, so I cannot answer your questions about 'fighting from guard.' I have a WHA video that details much more groundwork that I have learned. It looks more like what I saw at a BJJ seminar than anything that I was ever taught.
Too late to edit, but this should have read than I have learned, not that.
 

puunui

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Just to clarify, this isn't universally accepted.

It is universally accepted, by hapkido practitioners. I can't speak for non-hapkido practitioners, such as yourself.



The source for such claims seems to be Choi himself,

I choose to believe GM Choi, since he really has no reason to lie about it.


However, the records of the Daito Ryu show no record of Choi's name,

First of all, all of TAKEDA Sokaku's records (which were payment records) are still with us today. Some were lost. But since we are on the topic, do the records show Tokimune Sensei's of the dates of his participation at seminars? If so, how much did he pay his father for lessons?


there is no corroborating evidence of Choi living with Takeda, let alone being an "adopted son"

GM Choi never said he was adopted by Takeda Sensei; what he said was he was with Takeda Sensei for so long that he felt like his adopted son, that Takeda Sensei was like a father to him. Many people say similar things, without the legal paperwork being done. One of my instructors and I are very close, so much so that he once told me that I was like his younger brother. But according to you, this can't be true, since there is no "record" or "corroborating evidence" of this.


Ueshiba Kisshomaru, son of Ueshiba Morihei, founder of Aikido, has said that his father (Ueshiba Morihei) mentioned a young Korean person, aged about 17 or 18, who attended one or two seminars of Daito Ryu, and when training, treated Ueshiba as the senior (which would not be the case for an "adopted son" who trained as long as Choi claimed to). Kisshomaru went on to say that the young Korean continued to keep contact with Ueshiba Morihei for a while afterwards as well, which presumably included the two training together on occasion.

What Kisshomaru Sensei said was his father told him that a group of Korean students took a seminar with his father, and that after his father passed away, Kisshomaru Sensei stated that he received a letter from GM Choi. What I would like to know is what was written in the letter that GM Choi sent to Kisshomaru Sensei. That would be revealing.


I personally find it more likely that Choi had a little exposure to Daito Ryu (through one or two seminars, not formal training, and certainly not long term training), and then continued to have contact with Ueshiba, to the point where he realistically was actually more training in early Aikido (which was closer to Daito Ryu in application, anyway), and then wanted to introduce, or create, a Korean form of Aikido.

So are you now saying that GM Choi did study with Takeda Sensei? I thought you said that wasn't universally accepted?

The problem with your conclusions (outside of the fact that you misstate what Kisshomaru Sensei actually said) is that Morihei Sensei wasn't there 24/7 with Takeda Sensei, so he wouldn't know the extent to which GM Choi was or wasn't there. Just because he mentioned a seminar in which Korean students participated doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that that was all GM Choi did.

Another problem is that from the very beginning, GM Choi referred to his art as Dae Dong Ryu Hapki Yusul (Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Korean), which was later changed to Yukwonsul, then to Kido and then finally to Hapkido, only after his student GM JI Han Jae printed dan certificates for him to issue with the Hapkido name on it. If anything, GM Choi went out of his way to NOT use the Hapkido name, until the mid 60's or late 60's, which is twenty years after he returned to Korea.


There are some rather large gaps between the approach of Daito Ryu and Hapkido, the lack of formal kata taught in a progressive fashion, instead having a range of techniques that are then taught as separate components, put together at the practitioners discretion, which, again, is closer to the way Aikido was trained under Ueshiba Morihei (it was Kisshomaru who re-organized Aikido in the AikiKai in order to give it structure and a form of progression, but still not the classical kata form expected of a Daito Ryu approach).

I find it interesting that you also see a difference between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. To some people out there, it's all the same. Let me ask you, do you see a difference between Hapkido and Chin Na or a difference between Daito Ryu and Chin Na?


So Daito Ryu? Yeah, to a degree. But more realistically, only in a removed way. Early Aikido is where you should be looking.

Even assuming you are correct, then the conclusion would be that GM Choi did learn from Takeda Sensei, which what you quoted from my prior post and you said was not universally accepted. You accept the fact that GM Choi learned from Takeda Sensei, right?

In concluding, I find it fascinating how on one hand, Japanese style martial artists are quick to state long and loud that Taekwondo is "nothing more than Shotokan", even though there is no corroborating evidence or documentation to that effect. But when it comes to Hapkido, those same practitioners will argue there is no connection between Daito Ryu and Hapkido.
 
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The father of Hapkido (GM CHOI Yong Sul) and the founder of Aikido, (UESHIBA Morihei Sensei) learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu from the same teacher, TAKEDA Sokaku Sensei. So in that sense, Aikido and Hapkido are cousins.

The kicks in Hapkido were developed by two people, GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong who were classmates at GM Choi's Yukwonsul dojang. GM Ji said that he learned kicks from a taoist monk, who was a friend of the family. This monk taught GM JI "Taekiliyon", not Taekkyon. GM Ji also got kicking ideas from other places, including the bible. GM Ji is very proud of his kicking techniques, which revolutionalized kicking, not only in Korea, but the world. For example, the spin hook kick was originally a Hapkido kick, which taekwondo and other arts borrowed. Same thing with ax kick, which was originally a hapkido kick.


Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I don't get the bit about the Bible, though. . . Kicking ideas from the Bible? lolwut?
 

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