Boon Hae comparisom of WTF/ITF/Others

[StuartA]

Okay, this is a continuation of another thread. In short we are comparing a few moves from various Taeguek forms, their counterparts in the ITF forms and also discussing other applications for them from both Simon O'Neils book (and thoughts), as well as my book & thoughts and others thoughts/teaching.

I choose 3 patterns at random based on (readable) diagrams found via google images and selected random moves from each.

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The following patterns, images & moves were:


1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
Moves: 11 & 12


2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
Moves: 4,5 & 6


3: Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg
Moves: 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)

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After review by all the posters involved (plus anyone who wishes to particupate), the moves will be listed via their applications from the follwoing sources:

A1. Official KKW website applications - http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/information/information04_03.jsp?div=04
A2. Official KKW text book applications (if they differ from the above). Kukkiwon Text Book AuthorKim Un-yong register number 13-27. March 25 1973 english edition published August 25 2002.

B. ITF applications to same/similar moves – taken from Gen Choi’s first Ency (1999 I think)
C. Simons O'Neils applications from the Taeguek Ciper Book + his own additional thoughts
D. Applications from my book (Ch'ang Hon taekwon-do Hae Sul) + additional thoughts
E. Other applications taught by Masters to various posts
F. Additional thoughts by others


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Please do not post any discussions until each of the 3 sets, have most of the relevant information.. then the thread can continue with discussions on them all.

I will update them when the information is available - feel free to email/PM me with any appliactions you may wish to list.

Enjoy,

Stuart

 

[terryl965]

Ok here is the one from the other thread will translate later and post the english version.

Originally Posted by StuartA
Okay, here they are. I typed "Taeguek" in google images and the first 3 (viewable) diagrams that came up, I selected a few techniques from:

Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
Moves: 11 & 12

Ok this is form the Kukkiwon Text Book AuthorKim Un-yong register number 13-27. March 25 1973 english edition published August 25 2002.

When the opponet delivers an Olguljireugi, one performs an Olgulmakki, One inflicts a counterattack by an apchagi and, pursuing the opponet and then delivers a monitoring Bandaemakki.



Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
Moves: 4,5 & 6

Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.

When the opponet delivers a montong barojireugi consecultively.

Number 3: Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5Sq...taegeuk+04.jpg
Moves: 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)

Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.





There ya go, gotta go, got a class in half an hour. Ill check back later.

Stuart
I hope this helps out will be back after classes and I wil take it home just in case.

 

[bluekey88]

Well, in my school, we don't do much in the way of in depth analyses of poomse. It's something I';ve always felt was lacking and have worked hard to to try to research this. I just go tpermission from my instructor to put together an 8 week seminar on poomse analyses for SD. If it goes well, my instructor wants to work this stuff into the BB curriculum.

Anyway, most of what I know is of the K-B-P variety. I still struggle witht he creation of more in-depth moves without resortinbg to previosu Aikido and karate training.

In the first example, the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.

In the second example. the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face.

In the last example, the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the kneck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.

Hoep this makes sense and i'm REALLY not trying to plagiarize Mr. O'neil or anytone else...I'm still new at this stuff though

Peace,
Erik

 

[terryl965]

Here is Eric from the other thread as well.

Well, in my school, we don't do much in the way of in depth analyses of poomse. It's something I';ve always felt was lacking and have worked hard to to try to research this. I just go tpermission from my instructor to put together an 8 week seminar on poomse analyses for SD. If it goes well, my instructor wants to work this stuff into the BB curriculum.

Anyway, most of what I know is of the K-B-P variety. I still struggle witht he creation of more in-depth moves without resortinbg to previosu Aikido and karate training.

In the first example, the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.

In the second example. the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face.

In the last example, the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the kneck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.

Hoep this makes sense and i'm REALLY not trying to plagiarize Mr. O'neil or anytone else...I'm still new at this stuff though

Peace,
Erik

 

[terryl965]

OK ball is rolling here let get more input from those wise people we have here.

 

[StuartA]

Guys, you obviously missed the bit in my last post that said "Please do not post any discussions until each of the 3 sets, have most of the relevant information" - now I cant edit the first post. :shock:

Oh, well.. Ill do it again and head it... latest or something

 

[granfire]

Sorry to be the dork here, but what is it you are wanting to discuss?

I am a bit lost here.

(BTW the second link did not work for me)

 

[StuartA]

Sorry to be the dork here, but what is it you are wanting to discuss?

I am a bit lost here.

(BTW the second link did not work for me)

See: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67936&page=9

(scroll down to last few posts).. feel free to get involved.. the more the merrier

Regards,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Okay... I have compiled lots of stuff... so the following 3 posts relate to each of the 3 technique/s & their applications

Stand by,

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Number 1: Taken from Taeguek Yi jang 2
http://www.blackbeltcollege.com/Taeguek.Ee.Jang.jpg
Moves: 11 & 12
​

A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website listed as (move 13 instead of 11/12) the rising block blocks a straight punch/high.

A2 (Kukkikwon Text book): When the opponet delivers an Olguljireugi, one performs an Olgulmakki, One inflicts a counterattack by an apchagi and, pursuing the opponet and then delivers a monitoring Bandaemakki.

B (Gen Choi Ency): Found in ITF pattern, Dan-Gun. Application shown to block a downward knifehand strike as well as a downward strike with a pole

C (Simon O’Neill/Taeguek Cipher): Attacker pushes you up against a wall with both hands. Bring your left forearm over the top of his arms, slam it down into the crooks of his elbows then immediately drive upwards under his jaw. Push off with back foot and thrust forwards, striking the jaw again with the second rising forearm. Finish by underhooking his left arm with your right, gripping the back of his neck with your left, turning 270º ACW and driving him head first into the wall.

D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book): Both used together as an elbow break (from a head grab) or a shoulder lock

E (Applications from masters/high ranks): Patrick McCarthy (6th degree ITF + BB in other arts/40+ years experience) teaches this similar to my application (elbow break) but as a shoulder dislocation technique.

F (Other view/opinions/learnings): Eric (Bluekey88): the kbp applicatino is two block parrying high level punches to the face. the more in depth analyuses (pretty much what Mr. O'neil writes) could be using the chamber hand of the first high block to pin the arms of an attacker doing a lapel grab while executing a forearm strike to the throat/chin. doing this again, swithcing handsz, the adding the next move...the 270 turn into an inside block could be a transition into a standing arm bar or head strike/throw.

 

[StuartA]

Number 2: Taken from Taeguek 7 (I think)
http://www.northwest-taekwondo.co.uk/downloads/tk7.jpg
Moves: 4,5 & 6​

A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website (2,3 & 4) Move #5 Defends against a right punch, and follows (#6) with a front snap kick to stomach. Move #7 then blocks against a left punch.

A2 (Kukkikwon Text book): Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi, When the opponet delivers a montong barojireugi consecultively

B (Gen Choi Ency): AFAIK, apart from the inward block (move 4) and a front kick, the ITF does not have a combination of this type that I can think of. The low knifehand performed in that way isn’t in any of the ITF patterns up to 4th degree (though I could be wrong lol)

C (Simon O’Neill/Taeguek Cipher): Double lapel grab, sit weight back into cat stance and strike the outside of the attacker?s right arm just above or below the elbow with the heel of the left hand, securing his hand with the right hand. This will make him turn inwards, allowing you to attack the outside of his right knee with a forward stamping kick. Meanwhile, locate his right wrist with the left hand and his right elbow with the right hand, and perform a backward arm throw using the forearm block motion as you fall back into cat stance after the kick

D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book): At first glance I would say 5,6 & 7 looks like a combination as opposed to 4, 5 & 6 (the randomly selected ones above); with the downward knifehand (#4) a release from a clothing grab (ie. Strike to the PPs on the arm), followed by a front kick or knee (depending on distance) and finished with a downward elbow strike to the back of the now bent over opponent)

E (Applications from masters/high ranks):

F (Other view/opinions/learnings):Eric (Bluekey88): the kbp analyses could be pulling back into tiger stance and parrying punch with an inside block...turning and parrying a punch from another attacker and then kicking them. Again, less than satisfactory...perhaps a better application is again from some sort of grab to the left side of my body. I could secure the offending limb with my right hand (chamber) whiel executing a hammer fist strik to the side of the head/neck. Grabbing the offending limb with my left hand I could turn and execute an arm-bar takedown as I turn 180...then knee or kick the now bent over attacker in the face.

 

[StuartA]

Number 3: Taken from Taeguek 4 (I think)
http://lh5.ggpht.com/raztkdclub/R5SqIYKrmBI/AAAAAAAAADs/neUoNlKqNak/s800/taegeuk+04.jpg
Moves: 4,5 (and 6 if it works in a combination)​

A1 (Kukkikwon Wed Site): Based on the shown applications on the WTF Website (moves 2 & 3 instead of 4 & 5), move #4 would be to blocks a left punch using front (knife)hand only & move #5 then blocks a right punch, then strikes with fingertips to solar plexus.

A2 (Kukkikwon Text book): Defends by a nulomakki, drawspulling, and delivers a pyonsonkkeut sewotzireugi.

B (Gen Choi Ency): Moves 4 & 5 can be found in pattern Do-San, whilst move 6 can be found in pattern Choong-Moo. For 4 & 5 the text book applications are #4 blocks a right punch using front hand only, #5 is a fingertip strike to solar plexus with other hand parrying a left hand punch!! The combination of moves (4&5) also appear in Won-Hyo and they show the knifehand blocking a side kick (front hand only utilised again) and the fingertip thrust parrying short stick swung upwards, whilst again striking to solar plexus. Move 6 is shown as an attack with the lead (knife) hand to throat, with the other hand doing nothing. As a note, the preceding movement was a twin knifehand block, shown blocking a punch with the front hand and a pole with the with the rising hand!!!

C (Simon O’Neill/Taeguek Cipher): At close range, clear his right arm outwards with your left, then step forwards and strike the right side of his neck, jaw or collar bone with the right knifehand. Overhook the left arm with your right so that your forearm is pulling up on the back of his arm. Step through with a crescent step on his left side so that your left foot goes behind him, and sweep the spearhand arm across his chest or neck to take him down while locking his arm. I use the next movement as part of a separate application

D (Stuart Anslow/TKD Hae Sul book): In my book I offer a parry and strike application (#4), followed by a shoulder throw (#5) or hip throw (in Won-Hyo) though we have a spin following this movement in both cases. I also offer the strike to solar plexus, but only as a close range “gap maker” as opposed to an out and out strike. It should be noted that the two applications from Do-San & Won-Hyo differ slightly which is why there are two different throws list. Move #6 would appear in my next book, but in combination with the preceding move (in choong-Moo) it would be used as a simultaneous lift to jaw/neck strike, as well as a set up for a throw using the head following a twin throat grab (and subsequent release using move 1 in Choong-Moo).

E (Applications from masters/high ranks):Master Willie Lim taught move #4 as a simultaneous grab and strike, as well as the parry I listed in section D. He taught move #5 as a muscle strike which led to an two different types of armlocks (depending on how its targeted). He actively laughed at the notion of using the fingertips (#5) as a real strike!

F (Other view/opinions/learnings):Eric (Bluekey88): the kbp version is a knifehand block to a punch followed up by a spearhand strike to the abdomen, inner thigh, or groin. Better than others, but not necessarily a fight ender. For a better version, i always like using the knife strike as a wrapping up trapping of an attack with the chamber with a knife hand strike to the neck. The spearhand motion could than be something like clothesline typ throw or projection...something akin to Kokyunage in Aikidousing the deep stance to get ones front leg behing the opponent and using your body weight to unblance them over your leg.

 

[StuartA]

Done. Over to you!

Okay, all reposted in the correct order with, the correct applications (I hope).. so now, it really is on with the show.

Exile, I would delete all the posts about the c##k-up, so the 3 main app posts are on 1 page and in order

Up to you though,


Stuart

 

[exile]

Okay, all reposted in the correct order with, the correct applications (I hope).. so now, it really is on with the show.

Exile, I would delete all the posts about the c##k-up, so the 3 main app posts are on 1 page and in order

Up to you though,


Stuart

Done!

 

[StuartA]

Come on guys... I did a load of work getting all thsi togethor... the least you could do is discuss it!

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese! :angel:

 

[dancingalone]

Stuart, I don't have the time right now to read through the entire thread, but I would offer an interpretation of the two upper blocks in Tae Geuk Yi Jang as this:

1) opponent punches towards your face
2) you soft block upwards to divert the attack, ideally maintaining control with your left arm of your attacker's right arm through the wrist and bending it back so that his elbow faces up
3) in short succession, your right arm loops over so that you have a grip with both hands on your attacker, left hand on his wrist, right hand's palm on the elbow
4)you now have a classical sholder lock and can take the attacker down by driving through him both backwards and downwards.

 

[Ninjamom]

I am having a very difficult time picturing many of these alternative applications; therefore, it's really hard to make meaningful comments. (So, you'll have to settle for these )

I *think* I understand what you are suggesting for the phrase in TG#4. If I am understanding you correctly, then the opening move you are using is a single knifehand 'block', where the retracting left hand clears the opponent's front arm to allow entry for a neck/jaw strike with the right hand. However, the actual movement in TG#4 is a double knifehand block, which loses the ability to clear the opponent's front hand in this sequence. So, I guess my thought is that you have an effective application, but not of the movement sequence in TG#4.

In the sequence in TG#7 I could actually see this as a defense against a wrist grab: pull the grabbed hand to the body while attacking near the opponent's elbow with the palm-heel strike, hold onto that arm and pull him into your knee strike/groin kick, then pull his arm from near his elbow towards your opposite waist side while breaking his arm with your forearm in the out-to-in middle block motion.

Sorry, but in TG#2 I don't see any special techniques or moves, just the very raw easy basics - something for teaching young yellow stripes the TKD equivalent of how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

[StuartA]

Stuart, I don't have the time right now to read through the entire thread, but I would offer an interpretation of the two upper blocks in Tae Geuk Yi Jang as this:

1) opponent punches towards your face
2) you soft block upwards to divert the attack, ideally maintaining control with your left arm of your attacker's right arm through the wrist and bending it back so that his elbow faces up
3) in short succession, your right arm loops over so that you have a grip with both hands on your attacker, left hand on his wrist, right hand's palm on the elbow
4)you now have a classical sholder lock and can take the attacker down by driving through him both backwards and downwards.

Thats the application I offer - see I didnt even have to describe it!! EXCELLANT.

I usually do it from a grab though, as its less intensive than a full committed punch.

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

I am having a very difficult time picturing many of these alternative applications;

theres a couple of decent books on the subject.. pictures and all

therefore, it's really hard to make meaningful comments. (So, you'll have to settle for these )

I *think* I understand what you are suggesting for the phrase in TG#4. If I am understanding you correctly, then the opening move you are using is a single knifehand 'block', where the retracting left hand clears the opponent's front arm to allow entry for a neck/jaw strike with the right hand. However, the actual movement in TG#4 is a double knifehand block, which loses the ability to clear the opponent's front hand in this sequence. So, I guess my thought is that you have an effective application, but not of the movement sequence in TG#4.

In the sequence in TG#7 I could actually see this as a defense against a wrist grab: pull the grabbed hand to the body while attacking near the opponent's elbow with the palm-heel strike, hold onto that arm and pull him into your knee strike/groin kick, then pull his arm from near his elbow towards your opposite waist side while breaking his arm with your forearm in the out-to-in middle block motion.

Sorry, but in TG#2 I don't see any special techniques or moves, just the very raw easy basics - something for teaching young yellow stripes the TKD equivalent of how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

To whom are you refering to Ninjamon.. there 5 or 6 different apps listed by various sources?

Stuart

 

[Ninjamom]

To whom are you refering to Ninjamon.. there 5 or 6 different apps listed by various sources?

Stuart

Sorry

I was referring to your description of SJON's application in "The Taeguk Cipher'. Out of all of the application possibilities for the TG#4 sequence under discussion, it seemed the most interesting to me.