Bodan

[MI_martialist]

Why is it that we insist on thinking that Japanese martial history started with modern (traditional) martial arts? Why do we not want to look farther back and see the origins of the traditions and customs that everyone drools about?

 

[jks9199]

Why is it that we insist on thinking that Japanese martial history started with modern (traditional) martial arts? Why do we not want to look farther back and see the origins of the traditions and customs that everyone drools about?

Just what are you talking about?

I've mentioned and alluded to the koryu martial arts -- the ones with history dating back to and beyond the Japanese feudal era. Want to talk about sumo? Hard to go much further back...

 

[WaterGal]

Ah yes, but did the Go ranking system itself derive from the feudal ranking of Samurai clans? I see your cause, and raise you an effect! ;-)

And where did the Samurai get their ideas for feudal ranking systems, eh, hmmm? ;-)

Hahaha... well, of course, you can follow that reasoning all the way back to some villages in Mesopotamia deciding the strongest guy is the chief and all the regular shmucks that raise camels have to listen to him. I don't think many people would say that judo got their belt system from that, though.

 

[TrueJim]

Why is it that we insist on thinking that Japanese martial history started with modern (traditional) martial arts? Why do we not want to look farther back and see the origins of the traditions and customs that everyone drools about?

Seriously. You asked where color belts come from. You received an answer. You provided an alternative but (as yet) unsupported alternative theory. Then tell us it was all just a test anyway to see if we know as much as you. And now blast everybody for not being expansive enough.

Troll much?

 

[TrueJim]

Hahaha... well, of course, you can follow that reasoning all the way back to some villages in Mesopotamia deciding the strongest guy is the chief and all the regular shmucks that raise camels have to listen to him!

Exactly! It goes like this:

• Taekwondo got its belts from karate
• Karate got its belts from judo
• Judo got its belts from Go
• Go got its belts from samurai
• Samurai got their belts from Mesopotamia
• Mesopotamia got their belts from the elephants
• And from there it's elephants all the way down.

Arguably, this is the most succinct and satisfying answer ever provided on MartialTalk.

 

[TimoS]

I believe the first recorded usage of the term "karate" that we know of was by Ankō Itosu - an Okinawan living in Okinawa

Not quite. The first known mention with the current kanji was in a book by Hanashiro Chomo, Karate Shoshu Hen, published in 1905. He was, apparently, a student of Itosu, though.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, based on the (actual) topic of this thread, it passed me by… but considering some of the content, I feel that some things might be clarified here…

So, let's take a larger Samurai clan from Japanese history, are you saying they were self training and there was no need to understand seniority?

As dancingalone said, no, that's not what they meant or were referring to… but I'd ask what you mean by a "larger samurai clan" here… as, when it comes down to it, that image is largely inaccurate as well…

Bedazzled belts and multi-colored always changing based on special program uniforms are a result of marketing and not a need for distinction of seniority in training.

In modern application, particularly in more "business-oriented" schools (being diplomatic here…), sure. But the original intention of differentiated apparel to distinguish levels of experience and skill? Not quite the same thing…

It's a fair question, but I don't know if that's a good analogy? A clan of Samurai would presumably know each other over a period of many years? ...as opposed to a suburban taekwondo school where there's always a steady stream of new students. But who knows...I was never a medieval Samurai, so maybe there was always a steady stream of new students there too, just like a suburban taekwondo school! Maybe Samurai were constantly struggling to remember each other's names as they came and went.

Yeah… there's not really a way to discuss classical traditions in such a fashion… you firstly need to look at the particular period, then the domain… then you have to differentiate between the otomo-ryu and "regular" ryu-ha… who the daimyo was, and what their expectation and desires were… the political affiliations… and so on.

Now there is some confusion. Of course, we know that KARATE is a modern invention that was brought from Okinawa. Karate did not exist in Okinawa, so it is important to use proper vocabulary at appropriate times.

Er… huh? Well, that's patently incorrect in a couple of ways… namely that, yes, karate (both the art, and the terminology) did exist in Okinawa… was it the most popular term used? No… but it was still there…. and, while there are certainly a number of modern (largely Japanese-based) systems and organisations of karate, it is not what I would class as purely a "modern invention"…

Of course Samurai did not pursue studies in Karate. Karate is a modern Japanese adaptation of Okinawa fighting. In Japan before Budo, there was Bujutsu. My reference is to what happened before modern martial arts schools invented all of these belts, ranking, etc...what was done at that time?

Hmm, didn't they? Not familiar with the stories of shared training between Jigen Ryu practitioners and Ryukyu Te practitioners on Okinawa…?

I'm just saying that things aren't always as cut and dried as some might make them out to be…

The progression of these colors is an arbitrary modern invention...who says black is over red? Who says white is first? Where did that come from? Was it always that way? If so, why? If not, why was it changed? What was originally done to denote seniority...never rank?

What is your distinction between rank (which shows a position within a hierarchy) and seniority (which shows a position amongst a group, particularly within a hierarchy)…?

As far as who says white is first, well, Kano Jigoro can lay claim to that… was it always that way? Yep, since he came up with the concept of belt-indicated ranking systems… as far as why, there are a number of theories… but if you can ask Kano himself, let us know which idea is right. The in-yo concept of contrasting with the kuro-obi is my personal favourite, for the record…

When I say where did it come from, I am not talking about the last 100 years or so. No one just woke up and said...hey colored belts for ranking...it had to come from somewhere...where is that? What was done?

Er… actually….

Actually, that is pretty much what Kano did. He decided Judo needed some rankings, so he swiped the system used by GO players.

Yep, this. It's fairly simplified, but accurate.

Right...he took it from somewhere...from where?

As Dirty Dog said, from the game of Go… specifically to do with dan-i ranking, of course, but that was quickly adopted to the usage of shiro-obi and kuro-obi, as mentioned above, as a reference to the duality concept of in-yo… among other aspects, of course.

Why?

Because Kano was looking for a way to identify the experience and skill level of students at various university and school clubs that he'd not trained with before, as well as looking to find a way to provide various systems a way to have a more uniform ranking based on skill and application within the context of Kodokan rule-sets and competition.

What was the original way of denoting seniority?

Menyo licencing (menjo), coupled with particular aspects of dojo etiquette and training practices. Thing is, seniority and rank weren't always the same thing… and both were present. The concept of sempai/kohai was a constant, and was based pretty purely on who had been training (involved) the longest… ranking, on the other hand, indicated the particular level to which a person was authorised or licenced within a particular ryu-ha.

I don't know that there was necessarily ANY way of denoting seniority before Kanō, nor did anybody necessarily feel the need to. I suppose it could have just been:

• Joe's a better fighter than me, regardless of how long he's been doing this, so he's in charge. Or,
• Joe's been here longer than me, and we all just remember that, so he's in charge.

Honestly, that's not overtly accurate… it can have a bearing on the foundation of particular systems, but rarely on the idea of ranking within the ryu itself.

I mean, even think of any movie you've ever seen that portrays "ancient" martial arts...the head of the school or temple or whatever was the guy in charge, he had lieutenants and everybody knew who they were, and then at the bottom there were a bunch of new recruits, and everybody knew who they were too. Nobody wore sashes or belts or had special uniforms to denote rank. Not that movies are necessarily historically accurate, but you get what I mean.

Actually, that's not too far from accurate, at least where classical Japanese arts are concerned.

WHERE he took it from is apparently academia. We divide the students into grades. You take tests, if you pass, you graduate to the next grade.

Not overtly, actually. In classical arts, you would be ranked (licenced) based on the level of your introduction and exposure to the teachings of the ryu itself… a particular ryu would licence someone who might not have the physical skills, but had the knowledge and insight into the ryu, based on their years of study. One thing that Kano changed quite dramatically was what the ranking was indicating itself.

Kano's ranking was based very much on skill in application of the methods of Judo (Kodokan) itself. You would be ranked higher as you gained skill, and could beat (in the competitive forms of the Kodokan) other people of similar or higher rank than yourself. It got to the point that, in the early 20th Century, certain martial artists personal card (like a business card, but giving details about yourself only) might read something like "X-Ryu Menkyo Kaiden, Y-Ryu Chuden Menkyo, Kodokan 4th Dan"… indicating the level of licensing in classical systems, as well as the level to which you were tested to apply your skills outside of kata geiko.

Really? Honestly, does that really make any sense? Where do Japanese martial systems come from?

Really? Do you really want to ask such a question? Cause…

They date back to the Feudal days of Japan where there were organized clans or families, warrior compounds.

… this is both largely inaccurate, as well as (where you take it next), not anything related to the ranking within martial systems at all…

There was no seniority? There was no way of denoting levels of comprehension, instructional level, etc??? Do you really believe that?

Er… the idea of individual (clan/han) ranking as equal to, or even related to ranking of a martial system? Nope.

I'll put it this way… if you join the army, you might be a colonel… but you might also be a blue belt in Judo. It was the same thing back then, you know…

Do you really believe that out of the blue, Kano said...I will have people wear white suits and have them tie a belt around their waists?

Er… not entirely how it happened, but if we're going to speak in vague generalisations, yeah, he did just decide that for his system. Where he took the uniform from is essentially a form of hard-wearing clothing worn under the kimono, and the belt, well, that's because that's how Japanese jackets are tied… you may also be interested to know that the form of belt has changed over time, as the requirements for it demanded… just so you know…

You're suggesting that the idea of rank in a judo school came out of the notion of rank in the military? That theory seems equally plausible to me. Since Kanō was an academic though, and not a soldier, I'd be more inclined to think that his inspiration came from academia. I don't know that there's any way now though that anybody can know for sure what was in Kanō's thoughts back then.

It may seem plausible, but it's not correct, or accurate.

Of course there is a way...go to credible sources. Is that not like saying we cannot know why certain things in history happened because we have no one around who was there?

Okay, what "credible sources" are you citing? Cause, I gotta say, when it comes to the history of Judo and it's ranking systems, you look to the credible sources of Judo… not this fantasy you're promoting here.

There are credible sources, but I am not saying the military...I am saying warrior clans, families, Samurai clans had a system to denote seniority, and a system to provide instructional credentials.

You really need to differentiate between ryu-ha and kumi here… as you're confusing them quite badly.

If ind it interesting that in science, we like sources and in history we like sources, but in martial arts, we seem to like to theorize ourselves, or just accept what is said without sources and confirmation.

Frankly, speak for yourself. We in martial arts are pretty fond of sources and documentation as well… particularly in Koryu…

In the traditional Japanese arts, like the koryu styles, there is no rank as such. There are students and teachers. There are people with the license to teach, in a few different forms, and members who learn. Otherwise, there was caste and social status.

Er… no, not actually true there JKS… some ryu-ha, yeah… others far from it. And, as indicated above, caste and social status are unrelated (in many ways) to ryu-ha ranking.

Rank is a modern invention. In fact, I have only really used the word seniority.

No, rank is not a modern invention. Or do you think that generals are only found in armies after WWI? As far as rank in martial arts, again, no, it is far from a modern invention… and seniority is either the same thing, or unrelated entirely (depending on which definition you choose to apply).

You assume I have not and you have? I know where it comes from, and it wasn't an invention out of the air.

I, personally, would assume that you haven't… mainly as most of the information and ideas you've been putting forth are inaccurate, or at least, rather flawed. Again, I'd like to know exactly what sources you've been consulting…

So, maybe I should have approached this differently. So, here is my new approach:

Okay…

It is inconceivable that Kano and modern martial arts styles invented on their own this deeply rooted "ranking" system.

Why is it inconceivable? I mean… it happened, after all…

I came from older, Feudal systems of denoting seniority in Samurai clans...at least the Japanese iteration.

Er… gotta say, it sounds like you come from another in a long line of modern, invented, not-actually-connected-to-Japanese-arts, pseudo-koryu systems that have been cropping up over the last few decades… replete with the common fantasy ideas about what "samurai martial arts" and history are, rather than any actual understanding of either of them.

No, seriously...you're saying that:

• Kano was teaching judo
• He decided that his instruction would benefit from some sort of ranking system
• So he took his inspiration from feudal ranking systems and came up with a ranking system for judo

I suppose that seems plausible. Out of curiosity though...how do you know this?

Plausible, maybe… but wrong. So I'm curious how he "knew" this as well…

The problem I see with that chain is that it is pretty well documented that Kano took the go ranking system when he found that he needed a way to know how skilled a group of students that he didn't know personally should be...

Yep.

Ah yes, but did the Go ranking system itself derive from the feudal ranking of Samurai clans? I see your cause, and raise you an effect! ;-)

Ha! Nope… it was brought over from China, it is believed…

And where did the Samurai get their ideas for feudal ranking systems, eh, hmmm? ;-)

Which ranking system are you talking about? Menkyo ranking for martial traditions, or ranking within the gumi or han itself? They're not the same thing at all…

That said, han/gumi ranking is a combination of military ranking (fairly common throughout the world), and ryu-ha ranking (licensing) came about with the advent of ryu-ha themselves, starting ostensibly in the mid-15th Century, but really becoming a more commonplace aspect of ryu-ha during the 17th-19th Centuries (hmm… the period of peacetime… not anything to do with military ranking at all… interesting…)

Why is it that we insist on thinking that Japanese martial history started with modern (traditional) martial arts?

And exactly who do you think insists on thinking anything of the kind?

Why do we not want to look farther back and see the origins of the traditions and customs that everyone drools about?

Mate, you're really in the wrong place to think you're alone in looking at the older arts… of course, you're probably in the wrong place if you think that's what you're training in and studying as well, for the record…

Just what are you talking about?

Good question…

I've mentioned and alluded to the koryu martial arts -- the ones with history dating back to and beyond the Japanese feudal era. Want to talk about sumo? Hard to go much further back...

Or we can just send me an invite when these topics come up… ?

 

[Tez3]

Where do Japanese martial systems come from?

At a rough guess, I'd say Japan?