Belt colors

[puunui]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was stunned when you said that. I always assumed that most dojangs everywhere follow white, yellow-tag/stripe, yellow, green-tag/stripe, green, blue-tag/stripe, blue, red-tag/stripe, red, black-tag/stripe, black belt. I know some prefer brown to red, but I still thought they were in a minority.

So I'm stunned that the standard or as you wrote "seems" at least a very common configuration includes orange and purple belts... I've never seen a Taekwondoin wearing those colours.

It used to be like that, with a black piece of electrical tape on the ends to signify color belt ranking. In some instances it is still used for some of the higher color belts, like red or brown. There are also ranks like "senior blue", which has a red or black stripe running down the center of the length of the belt. Over the last twenty five years or so, color belts have evolved so that you get a different color belt for every guep promotion. Electrical tape is still used, but they are used to denote progress within a particular guep rank. For example, if you are going from green to purple, you may have up to three stripes or "tips" which are given to you at "tip tests". A tip test is sort of like a mini test. The material would be broken up in fourths (three tips) and when you have all the material, then you can test for the next color. I think it was started by EFC, an early martial art marketing firm, but a lot of schools have since adopted it, at least the more commercially successful ones.

I believe the alternating standard and non-standard color belt system evolved for tournament purposes. Color belts divisions are arranged via the standard colors of yellow, green blue and red, so it makes sense to have alternating or non-standard colors in between the standard colors, hence the yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown, red scheme.

Some schools add a lot of color belts including camo, senior blue, senior brown, senior red, bodan/danbo, so you get way more than the usual 8 or 9 guep ranks. In fact, numbers (I'm an 8th guep) is not really used in the US dojang for the most part. They just go by the color.

I'm talking in generalities and so each school has their own way. But this seems to be the basics.

 

[andyjeffries]

I've gone from stunned to shocked, the more detail I read.

Over the last twenty five years or so, color belts have evolved so that you get a different color belt for every guep promotion.

Wow! It's a whole new world I didn't know existed... In which case, I'm glad the WTF (and if the KKW get on board) are standardising them.

I'm talking in generalities and so each school has their own way. But this seems to be the basics.

Do you know if the same is true in Korea? Is it more standardised in Korea (i.e. a higher percentage of schools all do it the same way)?

 

[puunui]

Do you know if the same is true in Korea? Is it more standardised in Korea (i.e. a higher percentage of schools all do it the same way)?

I don't know what they do in korea as far as color belts go. I never see color belts in Korea. I wouldn't be surprised if the color belt system that the WTF is attempting to institute is what is used in dojang in Korea. Maybe that is what the agreed upon standard is there.

 

[Kacey]

IOver the last twenty five years or so, color belts have evolved so that you get a different color belt for every guep promotion. Electrical tape is still used, but they are used to denote progress within a particular guep rank. For example, if you are going from green to purple, you may have up to three stripes or "tips" which are given to you at "tip tests".

Some schools add a lot of color belts including camo, senior blue, senior brown, senior red, bodan/danbo, so you get way more than the usual 8 or 9 guep ranks. In fact, numbers (I'm an 8th guep) is not really used in the US dojang for the most part. They just go by the color.

Perhaps in your organization this is so. We use the system laid down by Gen. Choi, with 10 gups, and we call them by number, as shown:

10th gup white
9th gup white/yellow stripe
8th gup yellow
7th gup yellow/green stripe
6th gup green
5th gup green/blue stripe
4th gup blue
3rd gup blue/red stripe
2nd gup red
1st gup red/black stripe

The stripes are generally colored electrical tape, a belt width from the end of the belt on each end, although I have seen some classes that use fabric stripes, but they're hard to sew on, and tape lasts well enough at the gup ranks. For black belts, stripes are generally embroidered, as those belts are worn a lot longer than then color belts.

 

[andyjeffries]

Perhaps in your organization this is so. We use the system laid down by Gen. Choi, with 10 gups, and we call them by number, as shown:

I'm going through palpitations here... everything I thought was right with the world has been flipped upside down. I now find out the way we do coloured belts is the way General Choi wanted them, not what is "normal" in modern Kukki-Taekwondo schools!

The stripes are generally colored electrical tape, a belt width from the end of the belt on each end, although I have seen some classes that use fabric stripes, but they're hard to sew on, and tape lasts well enough at the gup ranks. For black belts, stripes are generally embroidered, as those belts are worn a lot longer than then color belts.

We generally use ribbon (and either have parents sew them on, or we always used to use a glue stick - that held them when you were testing every 3-4 months).

Oh...my...deity...

 

[puunui]

Moved this from the other topic:

Perhaps you should look at some Ch'ang H'on dojangs before speaking for all TKD practitioners in the US.

I wasn't speaking for all dojang. In fact, my own dojang doesn't use that color scheme; I use the basic white yellow green blue red black system myself. I'm traditional that way. I also wrote this when we switched to a new topic: "I'm talking in generalities and so each school has their own way." As all of us know, each school does things differently, but what I wrote is the trend out there. Just go stop by the strip mall dojang on the way home if you don't believe me.

 

[Archtkd]

Not to hijack the thread, but I was stunned when you said that. I always assumed that most dojangs everywhere follow white, yellow-tag/stripe, yellow, green-tag/stripe, green, blue-tag/stripe, blue, red-tag/stripe, red, black-tag/stripe, black belt. I know some prefer brown to red, but I still thought they were in a minority.

So I'm stunned that the standard or as you wrote "seems" at least a very common configuration includes orange and purple belts... I've never seen a Taekwondoin wearing those colours.

I've never trained in a dojang with tags or stripes on any belt. At the Kenya Taekwondo Association dojang where I began training we had White, Yellow (covering two levels), Green (covering two levels), Blue (covering two levels), Red (covering two levels) and Black. Here in the U.S I've trained under four teachers and they all have White, Yellow, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, Brown, Red, Poom, Black. My own dojang follows that order.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We go-
white
1st yellow
2nd yellow
1st blue
2nd blue
3rd blue
1st red
2nd red
3rd red
black
1st dan black

 

[ryuu55]

We are as follows:

10kyu - White
9kyu - Orange (used to be white w/ yellow stripe)
8kyu - Yellow
7kyu - Green
6kyu - Blue
5kyu - Blue w/ white stripe
4kyu - Brown (used to be red)
3kyu - Brown w/ 2 white stripes (used to be red w/ white stripe)
2kyu - Brown w/ 3 white stripes (used to be brown)
1kyu - Brown w/ 4 white stripes (used to be brown w/ white stripe)
1Dan - Black

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm going through palpitations here... everything I thought was right with the world has been flipped upside down. I now find out the way we do coloured belts is the way General Choi wanted them, not what is "normal" in modern Kukki-Taekwondo schools!

Is that really all that surprising? You call your martial art the name he wanted, too



I would be interested in knowing if green is an official KKW TKD belt color, however. I was told many years ago that it was not (their colors being only white, yellow, blue, red and black). But every KKW TKD school I have seen uses green.

We generally use ribbon (and either have parents sew them on, or we always used to use a glue stick - that held them when you were testing every 3-4 months).

I prefer stripes being made of fabric that you sew on, too. I've seen many schools use the electric tape on color belts but think it looks not so great.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Master Dan]

10th gup Yellow
9th gup Green
8th gup High Green with black striped Green Belt
7th gup Blue
6th gup High Blue with black striped Blue Belt
5th gup Red
4th gup High Red with black strped Red belt
3rd gup Brown 3rd
2nd gup Brown 2nd
1st gup Brown 1st or deputy black belt used to be 90 day probation then test 1st Dan.

At some tournaments involving people who did not use brown brown, brown belt was treated the same as red? or some times lumped in with black belt.

White belt in our association has never been given a rank. The use of black electrical tape has always been used as pregressive tip testing achieving 4-6 training goals in preperation to testing for the next gup. I actually use colored tape of the next changein belt color but go back to black tape when going from low to high. no tape except low to high on brown and brown 1st everyone knows by that time by the quality of person by that stage used to mean taking alot of full contact for 90 days.

 

[jthomas1600]

Seems we've had this conversation before. The school I train at follows the "new" model. I've commented on this before...our school has a different belt for each level...we actually have an extra. Is this partly a way to make money? Maybe. If you earn your black belt in 3.4-4 years which is typical at our school you'll spend about $120 a year testing which includes the new belt, timber you break, and cert for each new belt.

Anyway, we start with white of course then....
Yellow
orange
green
blue
purple
red
high red (half red/half black)
brown
high brown (half brown half red)
bowdan (sp?) (half black half white)
suber bowdan (black with white horizontal stripe)
black

Yeah, I know...a lot of belts right? Works for us though I guess.

 

[puunui]

Is that really all that surprising? You call your martial art the name he wanted, too

Then General Choi changed his mind when he lost control and decided that he didn't want the KTA, WTF, or Kukkiwon using "his" name, even though he was the one who forced the name change through in the first place, a name the majority of the pioneers did not want. In fact, the pioneers were so upset at the name change that he was forced out of the KTA.

Here is what the Modern History book says about the name change and General Choi:

*

After much discussion and argument back and forth over the issue, CHOI Hong Hi changed the name of the art
from Taesoodo to Taekwondo, which led to great hostility from LEE Chong Woo and LEE Nam Suk. CHOI Hong
Hi attempted to establish his authoritarian dictator style but he could not continue to lead because no one
would follow him. After one year, CHOI Hong Hi was forced to resign the KTA presidency by LEE Chong Woo
and UHM Woon Kyu. CHOI Hong Hi begged LEE Chong Woo to allow him to remain as President for six more
months, but LEE Chong Woo said no.

LEE Chong Woo comments on the issue: "CHOI Hong Hi was like an authoritarian dictator so UHM Woon Kyu
and I had to kick him out. One morning we went to visit him at his house in Hannamdong (near Yong San) to
ask him to resign, but CHOI Hong Hi begged us to allow him to remain as KTA President for six more months.
We told him he would have to choose between three things: 'Money', 'Position' or 'Honor'. We told him that if
he chose Honor and resigned, we would help him make his own International Taekwon-Do Federation, but we
wanted him to resign immediately and get out of the Korea Taekwondo Association."

CHOI Hong Hi finally resigned as KTA President because he could not overcome the hostility of the Kwan heads
(Kwan Jang) in Taekwondo. In March 1966, the ITF was created at the Choson Hotel with nine participating
countries such as West Germany, USA, Turkey, Italy, etc. But because he had too much desire and because of
his authoritarian ways, he was forever labeled the "permanent troublemaker" in Taekwondo.

*

I would be interested in knowing if green is an official KKW TKD belt color, however. I was told many years ago that it was not (their colors being only white, yellow, blue, red and black). But every KKW TKD school I have seen uses green.

It used to be. I don't know about now. Everything seems to be changing at the moment. Green was originally a Moo Duk Kwan guep color belt, because of the Midnight Blue belt. The Moo Duk Kwan used green in place of blue.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Then General Choi changed his mind when he lost control and decided that he didn't want the KTA, WTF, or Kukkiwon using "his" name, even though he was the one who forced the name change through in the first place, a name the majority of the pioneers did not want.

Of course, he did. I thought this was pretty obvious by how he viewed the WTF and KKW later :lol:

It used to be. I don't know about now. Everything seems to be changing at the moment. Green was originally a Moo Duk Kwan guep color belt, because of the Midnight Blue belt. The Moo Duk Kwan used green in place of blue.

That's odd. Isn't there any place one could look for what the KKW says about what the official colors of their belts are?

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Of course, he did. I thought this was pretty obvious by how he viewed the WTF and KKW later :lol:

What is more obvious is that when he did force the name change through, it was with the KTA curriculum, the KTA way of sparring, the KTA way of doing everything. So "obviously" he considered all of that to be "Taekwondo" when he forced the name change through. But as time passes, it matters less and less what General Choi thought about Taekwondo because soon few will remember him, much less know who he is. Same for the other pioneers. We can already see their juniors dismantling the pioneers vision of Taekwondo, piece by piece. I wouldn't be surprised if they get rid of the current Kukkiwon poomsae and replace it with something else in the future. That is pretty much the only thing that is untouched at this point. Maybe even the name itself will change. Nothing is sacred at the moment.

That's odd. Isn't there any place one could look for what the KKW says about what the official colors of their belts are?

I don't think the Kukkiwon cares all that much about official guep colors, given the fact that one can become a 1st Poom or 1st Dan in one year in Korea. It's not like students are staying at any one color for very long. Belt colors, like a lot of things in Kukki Taekwondo, is up to the individual instructor's discretion. There is no right or wrong system of color belts at this point in time in Kukki Taekwondo.

That is, until the WTF announced their proposed system of colors.

The USTU laid out competition according to yellow, green, blue red and black belt ranks from the very beginning. I have the earliest AAU Taekwondo booklet on the rules at home, I can go look it up later. If you want you can look at the current USAT competition rules online to confirm the color belts used there. That would be the "official" color belt ranks for the Kukkiwon and WTF representative in the US.

 

[chrispillertkd]

What is more obvious is that when he did force the name change through, it was with the KTA curriculum, the KTA way of sparring, the KTA way of doing everything. So "obviously" he considered all of that to be "Taekwondo" when he forced the name change through.

Maybe, maybe not. What is obvious is that what Gen. Choi wanted was people doing Taekwon-Do his way. He was willing to make concessions in the short term to try to get what he wanted in the long term.

But as time passes, it matters less and less what General Choi thought about Taekwondo because soon few will remember him, much less know who he is. Same for the other pioneers.

That's too bad, all the way around, IMO. I don't how acurate a prediction it is regarding Gen. Choi, of course, but it's a shame you think it holds for the other pioneers.

I don't think the Kukkiwon cares all that much about official guep colors, given the fact that one can become a 1st Poom or 1st Dan in one year in Korea. It's not like students are staying at any one color for very long. Belt colors, like a lot of things in Kukki Taekwondo, is up to the individual instructor's discretion. There is no right or wrong system of color belts at this point in time in Kukki Taekwondo.

So is there an official KKW guideline or rule for belt colors? I'm well aware that there is little if any oversight for individual schools but is there even a standard that people are supposed to be following in this area?

The USTU laid out competition according to yellow, green, blue red and black belt ranks from the very beginning. I have the earliest AAU Taekwondo booklet on the rules at home, I can go look it up later. If you want you can look at the current USAT competition rules online to confirm the color belts used there. That would be the "official" color belt ranks for the Kukkiwon and WTF representative in the US.

Well sure, all of those organizations are (or were) KKW reps. But that doesn't mean they are doing everything in line with how the KKW wants it done. The USTF at one point was the only ITF recognized oranization in the U.S. but it's rules for tournament sparring were slightly different from those promulgated by the ITF, for instance. I'm interested in what the KKW itself has to say on the subject, if anyone knows. When I heard that they didn't use the color green (and this was back circa 1998 or so) I was surprised as all the KKW schools I had seen used it as a color.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

So is there an official KKW guideline or rule for belt colors? I'm well aware that there is little if any oversight for individual schools but is there even a standard that people are supposed to be following in this area?

If it would be anywhere it would be in the official Kukkiwon Textbook. Please let us know if you find it.

 

[puunui]

Maybe, maybe not. What is obvious is that what Gen. Choi wanted was people doing Taekwon-Do his way. He was willing to make concessions in the short term to try to get what he wanted in the long term.

Try reading the quoted part of the Modern History above. General Choi ran things autocratically; he didn't make any concessions, which is why he was forced out as KTA President. Your statement "What is obvious is that what Gen. Choi wanted was people doing Taekwon-Do his way." is true however. Even his interpretation of the term "Oh Do Kwan" shows how he thought. General Choi translates it as "My Way", but according to the interview of GM NAM Tae Hi conducted by your senior Master Earl Weiss, the term meant "Our Way".

 

[Archtkd]

Folks: Must every Taekwondo thread be turned into the old and tired Gen Choi, ITF, WTF, Kukkiwon, founders and related Kwan issues -- complete with dissections, citations, bibliograhy, etc? Can't we simply agree that Taekwondo geup belt colors vary among all sects of the martial art/sport all over the world and that shouldn't be a big deal? Some of us actually try to study this threads in efforts to learn something new, but very little education seems to be making it through because we keeping clogging the pipeline of knowledge with old driftwood.

 

[terrylamar]

Folks: Must every Taekwondo thread be turned into the old and tired Gen Choi, ITF, WTF, Kukkiwon, founders and related Kwan issues -- complete with dissections, citations, bibliograhy, etc? Can't we simply agree that Taekwondo geup belt colors vary among all sects of the martial art/sport all over the world and that shouldn't be a big deal? Some of us actually try to study this threads in efforts to learn something new, but very little education seems to be making it through because we keeping clogging the pipeline of knowledge with old driftwood.

Wouldn't that make for a very short thread? Geup belt vary from organization to prganization, from school to school. Period. Nothing to see here folks, move on.

I'm not picking on you, necessarily, but you don't seem to see the trees because of the forest. You say you want to study these threads in an effort to learn something, but when someone tries to teach, even providing citations, you don't want to hear it.

What I see is someone correcting something that has been said for years, said so many times that many believe it as the truth. Since he provides numereous citations and his distractors seem unable to, I know who I believe.

I have been to enough different schools that I know there are many different belt systems. Guep ranking are inmaterial in the greater scheme of things. Perhaps important to the individual guep holder, not to the rest of us. I certainly don't go around talking about what Jr. High School or High School I attended once I graduated from the University.

I have probably painted a target on my back now. Let's get over what belt color is associated with what guep.