Bodan

[TrueJim]

Actually, that is pretty much what Kano did. He decided Judo needed some rankings, so he swiped the system used by GO players.

Agreed. The thing to remember about Kanō is that he wasn't just a martial artist...he was also a professor of economics, then later an academic dean. Given his day-job as an educator, it's not surprising that he might say, "You know...some of the things we do in the classroom during the day when we teach economics or history or whatever...maybe some of those thing would be useful for teaching judo too?" So the idea of having ranks, giving tests to students to promote them to new ranks, giving students some indicator of their new rank...as an educator, all of those ideas probably would have come to Kanō very naturally. Whereas a martial artist who was more old-school might never have had the idea occur to him: "Gee, I wonder if my instruction would be improved by giving my students ranks?" Now even the local Kung Fu schools in my neighborhood give the kids colored "sashes" to denote their rank.

 

[MI_martialist]

Right...he took it from somewhere...from where? Why? What was the original way of denoting seniority?

Actually, that is pretty much what Kano did. He decided Judo needed some rankings, so he swiped the system used by GO players.

 

[TrueJim]

Right...he took it from somewhere...from where? Why? What was the original way of denoting seniority?

I don't know that there was necessarily ANY way of denoting seniority before Kanō, nor did anybody necessarily feel the need to. I suppose it could have just been:

• Joe's a better fighter than me, regardless of how long he's been doing this, so he's in charge. Or,
• Joe's been here longer than me, and we all just remember that, so he's in charge.

I mean, even think of any movie you've ever seen that portrays "ancient" martial arts...the head of the school or temple or whatever was the guy in charge, he had lieutenants and everybody knew who they were, and then at the bottom there were a bunch of new recruits, and everybody knew who they were too. Nobody wore sashes or belts or had special uniforms to denote rank. Not that movies are necessarily historically accurate, but you get what I mean.

WHERE he took it from is apparently academia. We divide the students into grades. You take tests, if you pass, you graduate to the next grade.

 

[MI_martialist]

Really? Honestly, does that really make any sense? Where do Japanese martial systems come from? They date back to the Feudal days of Japan where there were organized clans or families, warrior compounds. There was no seniority? There was no way of denoting levels of comprehension, instructional level, etc??? Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that out of the blue, Kano said...I will have people wear white suits and have them tie a belt around their waists?

I don't know that there was necessarily ANY way of denoting seniority before Kanō, nor did anybody necessarily feel the need to. I suppose it could have just been:

• Joe's a better fighter than me, regardless of how long he's been doing this, so he's in charge. Or,
• Joe's been here longer than me, and we all just remember that, so he's in charge.

I mean, even think of any movie you've ever seen that portrays "ancient" martial arts...the head of the school or temple or whatever was the guy in charge, he had lieutenants and everybody knew who they were, and then at the bottom there were a bunch of new recruits, and everybody knew who they were too. Nobody wore sashes or belts or had special uniforms to denote rank. Not that movies are necessarily historically accurate, but you get what I mean.

WHERE he took it from is apparently academia. We divide the students into grades. You take tests, if you pass, you graduate to the next grade.

 

[TrueJim]

Really? Honestly, does that really make any sense? Where do Japanese martial systems come from? They date back to the Feudal days of Japan where there were organized clans or families, warrior compounds. There was no seniority? There was no way of denoting levels of comprehension, instructional level, etc??? Do you really believe that? Do you really believe that out of the blue, Kano said...I will have people wear white suits and have them tie a belt around their waists?

You're suggesting that the idea of rank in a judo school came out of the notion of rank in the military? That theory seems equally plausible to me. Since Kanō was an academic though, and not a soldier, I'd be more inclined to think that his inspiration came from academia. I don't know that there's any way now though that anybody can know for sure what was in Kanō's thoughts back then.

 

[MI_martialist]

Of course there is a way...go to credible sources. Is that not like saying we cannot know why certain things in history happened because we have no one around who was there?

There are credible sources, but I am not saying the military...I am saying warrior clans, families, Samurai clans had a system to denote seniority, and a system to provide instructional credentials.

If ind it interesting that in science, we like sources and in history we like sources, but in martial arts, we seem to like to theorize ourselves, or just accept what is said without sources and confirmation.

You're suggesting that the idea of rank in a judo school came out of the notion of rank in the military? That theory seems equally plausible to me. Since Kanō was an academic though, and not a soldier, I'd be more inclined to think that his inspiration came from academia. I don't know that there's any way now though that anybody can know for sure what was in Kanō's thoughts back then.

 

[jks9199]

In the traditional Japanese arts, like the koryu styles, there is no rank as such. There are students and teachers. There are people with the license to teach, in a few different forms, and members who learn. Otherwise, there was caste and social status.

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[TrueJim]

Of course there is a way...go to credible sources.

Then...what's stopping you? By all means, go to the credible sources! I'm not the one who asked the question.

 

[MI_martialist]

Rank is a modern invention. In fact, I have only really used the word seniority.

In the traditional Japanese arts, like the koryu styles, there is no rank as such. There are students and teachers. There are people with the license to teach, in a few different forms, and members who learn. Otherwise, there was caste and social status.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[MI_martialist]

You assume I have not and you have? I know where it comes from, and it wasn't an invention out of the air.

Then...what's stopping you? By all means, go to the credible sources! I'm not the one who asked the question.

 

[TrueJim]

Right...he took it from somewhere...from where? Why? What was the original way of denoting seniority?

I know where it comes from, and it wasn't an invention out of the air.

That's odd...if you already know the answer, then why did you ask the question?

Since you do know though, I'd be interested in learning more. Could you tell me more about how the invention came about? I always like to learn.

 

[MI_martialist]

I ask the question to elicit responses, to try to get people to think...to delve deeper into their understanding. I went and searched it out...what is stopping you from doing the same?

That's odd...if you already know the answer, then why did you ask the question?

Since you do know though, I'd be interested in learning more. Could you tell me more about how the invention came about? I always like to learn.

 

[MI_martialist]

So, maybe I should have approached this differently. So, here is my new approach:

It is inconceivable that Kano and modern martial arts styles invented on their own this deeply rooted "ranking" system. I came from older, Feudal systems of denoting seniority in Samurai clans...at least the Japanese iteration.

I ask the question to elicit responses, to try to get people to think...to delve deeper into their understanding. I went and searched it out...what is stopping you from doing the same?

 

[TrueJim]

I went and searched it out...what is stopping you from doing the same?

Why would I go out and do research for a question that I didn't ask?

I ask the question to elicit responses, to try to get people to think...

You have succeeded! But I won't divulge what I'm thinking. ;-)

No, seriously...you're saying that:

• Kano was teaching judo
• He decided that his instruction would benefit from some sort of ranking system
• So he took his inspiration from feudal ranking systems and came up with a ranking system for judo

I suppose that seems plausible. Out of curiosity though...how do you know this?

 

[jks9199]

Why would I go out and do research for a question that I didn't ask?



You have succeeded! But I won't divulge what I'm thinking. ;-)

No, seriously...you're saying that:

• Kano was teaching judo
• He decided that his instruction would benefit from some sort of ranking system
• So he took his inspiration from feudal ranking systems and came up with a ranking system for judo

I suppose that seems plausible. Out of curiosity though...how do you know this?

The problem I see with that chain is that it is pretty well documented that Kano took the go ranking system when he found that he needed a way to know how skilled a group of students that he didn't know personally should be...

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[TrueJim]

The problem I see with that chain is that it is pretty well documented that Kano took the go ranking system when he found that he needed a way to know how skilled a group of students that he didn't know personally should be...

Ah yes, but did the Go ranking system itself derive from the feudal ranking of Samurai clans? I see your cause, and raise you an effect! ;-)

And where did the Samurai get their ideas for feudal ranking systems, eh, hmmm? ;-)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Of course, we know that KARATE is a modern invention that was brought from Okinawa. Karate did not exist in Okinawa, so it is important to use proper vocabulary at appropriate times.

Of course Samurai did not pursue studies in Karate. Karate is a modern Japanese adaptation of Okinawa fighting.

Say what?!! You might want to double-check your history there. Karate was created (and named) in Okinawa. The Japanese adapted it into their own styles, but Okinawan karate came first.

 

[TimoS]

Say what?!! You might want to double-check your history there. Karate was created (and named) in Okinawa. The Japanese adapted it into their own styles, but Okinawan karate came first.

I think what he's referring to is that karate used to be called todi, or simply ti, but that's not wholly accurate. The earliest mention of karate using the kanji for empty hand was, after all, over 100 years ago and presumably since it was written that way in a book, it was already an established term.

 

[jks9199]

Ah yes, but did the Go ranking system itself derive from the feudal ranking of Samurai clans? I see your cause, and raise you an effect! ;-)

And where did the Samurai get their ideas for feudal ranking systems, eh, hmmm? ;-)

Elephants. In the end, it's all Elephants, all the way down.

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[Tony Dismukes]

I think what he's referring to is that karate used to be called todi, or simply ti, but that's not wholly accurate. The earliest mention of karate using the kanji for empty hand was, after all, over 100 years ago and presumably since it was written that way in a book, it was already an established term.

Even if he's just talking about the name and not the art, I believe the first recorded usage of the term "karate" that we know of was by Ankō Itosu - an Okinawan living in Okinawa. Of course the art itself, regardless of what you call it, was developed in Okinawa.