Black Belts??

[CuongNhuka]

Well, like I said, a black belt (ultimately) is just a peice of cloth. But it is a symbol. A symbol of time, knowledge, ablility, skill, understanding, and the ability to teach. That is (ultimaltly) what differenatiates a white belt from a black belt. In my humble oppion. :asian:

 

[matt.m]

Wow,

This last post was really good in my opinion. Look, who are we to judge? Well in I will put it in a perspective of the military. Marine Corps bootcamp is the hardest of the four. Physically, mentally, you just sweat a little more blood and have more discipline at the end.

This does not take away from the achievement from those who volunteered the be sailors, soldiers or airmen. They chose how they wanted to serve our country so be it, I will call it a horrible disservice to those who would challenge their commitment.

 

[jks9199]

I love all the feed back its really awsome to know you can ask a serious question and get diffrent answers with out causing a war. And just to let everyone know I do read each and every reply that is posted. Everyone has some good valid reasons and some awsome points on the matter. I have asked this question over and over again to diffrent people even people not into martial arts and gotten similar responses. As for me I got a BB at a young age and to be totally honest I worked hard for it. Some say this is a question of maturity and like most of you said I too have seen adults at age 40 not be as mature as a 12 year old. So why give a 40 year old a BB and not the 12 year old. Which brings me to my next question what does a black belt mean to you? Better yet if they are given out like toys does it really mean anything? Any average joe blow can go out and buy a black belt but it doesnt make him a black belt. I guess the point I'm trying to make is you can pass a child off as a black belt but it doesnt make that child a black belt. I think if an instructor honestly has passed a student that is not deserving then maybe he is in his profession for the wrong reason.

I've never said, and I've never meant to imply that child black belts don't work hard for their belts. Many of them train quite hard, and very seriously.

As I said -- to me a black belt recognizes skill level and technical understanding, as well as some maturity. I won't recommend someone for black belt, no matter how skilled they are, if I don't feel that their conduct will be, overall, a good example for underbelts. I've declined to recommend at least one person, and held off on a few others. And I've been let down by at least one whom I did recommend... It'd be nice to see him again, since we haven't seen him since shortly after he got promoted. (And if you happen to recognize yourself in this... Get in touch with your teachers, whoever they may be!)

The simple truth is that a black belt doesn't know anything more the day after they were promoted than the day before. That belt doesn't convey any special ability; I know some underbelts who are much better at explaining and teaching concepts than I am, for example. I look for not only skill, not only understanding, but something that goes deeper; I guess you can call it commitment or dedication. If the black belt is the goal in and of itself -- than I feel that the person isn't training, within our system, for the right reasons. A black belt is also a responsibility to help pass on what you've learned, within our system. (Note that I am constantly qualifying this with phrases like "within our system"; more on that in just a moment.) Perhaps that's by teaching a club of your own somewhere -- or perhaps it's simply by training hard and regularly taking part in the club you came up in, and being a good example of a student for under belts.

But -- the ultimate thing is that there is no one definition of "black belt", except to say "a piece of material, black in color, used to hold the pants up or the jacket closed." One system may say that a black belt is a teacher, while another says that a black belt is just someone who's finally ready to start learning; teaching licence is another thing entirely there. Another may say that you must have a competitive record showing a certain number of wins to be a black belt, while others simply require that you have competed regularly over the past year. Some require several hundred hours of training, and others require several thousand hours of training to even be considered for a black belt. So, in the end, the question of "what is a black belt" really becomes "what does a black belt mean, within the context of a particular system under a certain instructor, to a specific person?" There's just no one answer...

 

[jks9199]

It depends on who is giving them out - because even in McDojos, there are many truly deserving students, who, by the standards of their organization, are deserving of moving on to the next level. Some of them learn that the standards are different elsewhere, and some of them go on to earn black belts in other organizations and/or styles; some don't - does that make their achievement any less in their eyes - and yes, I know, if makes it less in the eyes of others who underwent more strenuous requirements, but that's not my point here. Certainly, there are students who receive black belts who shouldn't, and just as certainly, there are differences in standards between, and even within, organizations.

Who are we to judge what does, and does not, mean something to the person who attains it? Yes, it waters down the meaning of black belt for those of us who went through more strenuous processes - but that doesn't make it meaningless for those who don't.

That's a good point. My system's association has recently revamped black belt testing significantly. Does that mean that a person who earned the black belt before isn't as skilled or tough or whatever as one who earns it today? Does that make the people who got promoted to higher level black belts the old way better or worse than the ones who go through the new process? And I know that other systems have changed their requirements at different times, as well.

My personal opinion is that if the question is raw skill -- that speaks for itself as you watch the person train or teach. Belt rankings, after all, are only external indicators -- and some people have chosen not to play the games for the external badges at this time.

 

[searcher]

To me, it should mean that you can defend yourself against a typical attacker, not a comparably-sized attacker.

So then with what you said, do we not promote women or those who are of a less then avreage size or ability? What about older students? Who should be stated as the standard attacker? Do you wnat it to be a large nasty individual? I feel that your statement leaves some very large holes. Are you willing to give up your rank if you lose one street fight or if you fail to stop yourself from getting mugged? I am not wanting to start a fight and I mean no disrespect, but your statement begs to have these questions asked.

 

[Ybot]

I'm always amazed that people can compare black belts from across styles. It's not just non-martial artists either. I take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and I know that a black belt in my art means something very different than a black belt in other arts. Even a black belt in Judo, our closest relation (Martial Arts wise) means something totally different than a Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Requirements and thoughts about what constitutes a blackbelt verry greatly between the arts. I believe that some arts it is perfectly fine to have a black belt at a reasonible age (they have to understand what their belt signifies, and make a comitment to up hold those standards).

Anyway, from the perspective of my art it is vertually impossible to get a Black Belt at 18 (unless perhaps your father is Helio Gracie). We have a seperate progression of belts for children under the age of 16. At 16, if they can show they can hang, they can recieve their Blue belt which would be the first belt awarded after white to an adult. 16 year old blues I've found held to even a higher standard of technique than an adult blue, because their still developing bodies are not as strong as an adults of equal size, so in order to hang their technique is great.

At this point they are not allowed to progress further until they reach 18. This isn't really a big deal, as most adults take around 2 years to transition from blue to purple as well.

Being that the youngest you can recieve your purple at is 18, it becomes extreemly hard to get a black before 19 or 20. Typicly it's another 2 years at purple (now 20), then another 2 at brown (now 22).

That's just our system, and I find that most who train BJJ don't have a problem with that. Belts weigh heavy in BJJ (trust me, as someone nearing brown).

I heard somewhere the other day (can't remember where), that "We don't chase the belts, the belts chase us." This really sums up how I feal about our belt system.

Now, is this the "right way" of doing belts... again I say no. I understand the concept of black originaly was to indicate the level where you really begin to learn your art. If this is the case the average 10 years to get black in BJJ is probably a bit eccessive.

 

[DArnold]

So then with what you said, do we not promote women or those who are of a less then avreage size or ability? What about older students? Who should be stated as the standard attacker? Do you wnat it to be a large nasty individual? I feel that your statement leaves some very large holes. Are you willing to give up your rank if you lose one street fight or if you fail to stop yourself from getting mugged? I am not wanting to start a fight and I mean no disrespect, but your statement begs to have these questions asked.

Here, Here, If this is what you basis of rank is then I would call it more of a fighting system and not a Martial Art.

It starts to become more of an Olympic sport where very few participate, learn, or improve themselves.

Over time most seniors learn that the physical is only 50% of a martial art.

 

[juszczec]

There is rank and ability.

Rank is an organizational thing. Satisfy the requirements of the organization and you get the rank.

Ability is independent of rank.

Wanna give a 4 year old a black belt? Ok. Go ahead. Run your org however you want.

Mark

 

[Christina05]

Arguments well spoken. Guess it just depends on what your organization requires of the student. like someone stated if you want to give a four year old a black belt its your business.

 

[jdinca]

I guess whether or not the BB is relevant, or just a strip of cloth really depends on the system and its requirements. Our school has only given one BB to someone below the age of 16. Not because there is an imposed age requirement but because most teenagers don't have the level of maturity and composure that we consider to be more important that the physical movement. The BB I mentioned received his at age 14. He had started at 3 1/2, has won an incredible number of awards, was named IKF youth of the year in '05, and was on the Wushu "B" team for the '08 Olympics. If it weren't for the fact that mentally and emotionally he's one of the most put together kids I've ever known, he still wouldn't be a BB. It's for that reason that I question the school that would give children a BB. What is the requirement for that BB and what do you expect in return for awarding the belt? I honestly think that in most cases, awarding a BB to a child is doing the child a disservice.

 

[scottt]

morph4me, what is your age, weight and rank?

I'm guessing 12, 80lbs, 2nd geup? (really, that's a friendly jab).

I'm also a Kukkiwon type guy, so I am with Wade on this one. For a 10 year old kid who literally spent half his life in tkd, I don't have a problem giving out a poom belt. I do go out of my way to explain even within our club that that is a _junior_ black belt. As long as the kid keeps training, he can convert it to a dan grade later, and the rules and ages for doing so are posted on the Kukkiwon website.

However, that doesn't explain why I have seen other Kukkiwon schools give black belts out to kids that are still looking forward to junior high. However, each school makes its own decisions on these things, I guess.