Black Belts??

[Christina05]

Okay so I was in another forum and someone brought up kids recieveing black belts and how kids dont deserve them. I thought it would be interesting to see what everyone thought. And at what age do you think is to young to recieve a black belt?

 

[Mei Hua]

Anyone under 18 doesn't deserve one.

 

[Kacey]

There's a good discussion of this here.

While I have a problem with children too young to walk across the parking lot without holding an adult's hand receiving black belts, I am not willing to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say "no one below age X can be a black belt". I think there is a level of maturity necessary before one confers that rank on anyone - and I have met children who have that level of maturity, and adults who do not. A good instructor is able to determine who is, and is not, ready for a black belt - mentally as well as physically.

 

[dragonswordkata]

I believe it really depends on the childs dedication and maturity. Just like an adult testing for 1st dan. If an instructor feels the child is ready in all facets for the rank, any rank,then they should be tested. The child should be held to the same high standards as an adult. Obviously there are some emotional/physical differences, but with a wise and dedicated sensi teaching the values along the path, you should have a true, abet young, martial artist and human being.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

I agree with Kacey, the instructor should know if the kid is ready, but if a child does get a BB then they should be able to keep up with the adult BB

 

[kachi]

It's tough, but I would have to draw a line and say 16 at a bare minimum for even considering it... Then from there decided if they are mature enough, which they should be by that point... But then again there are some real odd balls out there.

 

[CuongNhuka]

(clears throut angrely) The 16 year old is anouyed!!! Lets set some ground rules (as the undeserving see's it). A black belt is just a peice of cloth, it is a symbol. Period. It is a symbol of of knowledge, understnading, and time in the style. However, the young should not be black belts. The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching. A four year cann't (probabaly) teach worth beans. But a sixteen year old might be able. And if not, then someone should email my sensei and tell him that one of the assistent sensei's (who has been teaching since he was sixteen) shouldn't have been teaching. And for that matter neither should I.
Yes many kids are unable (or unwilling) to teach or perform anyother duty expected of the wearer of a black belt. But I know a 6th degree black belt that shouldn't be teaching, and he's in his 30's!!!!! Basing things on age is pointless. It's like saying that I'm unable to do something now, but tomorrow i will magicly be fully able. It makes no sense. Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity.

 

[RED]

This is a subject that has stuck in my craw for a while now. Any one under the age of 16 should only go as far as 7th grade / gup. After all most martial arts can inflict injury. You are a weapon. The problem I see is a kid’s parents pay for the test and then the school is in a dilemma either loose a student or promote the student. The student (and parents) should be trained from the beginning to understand the maturity to handle the skills involved at a Black Belt level. There was a day when someone that had a Black Belt brought high respect for said person. Now some people would laugh at the notion of a 5 year old with a Black Belt. It kind of degrades Martial Arts in general.

Another thing is the over confidence of a kid with a Black Belt. Even my daughter who is 11 said to me” don’t worry dad I know Tae Kwon Do” when I was talking to her about bad people kidnapping her. This is very dangerous. A BB kid might stay and fight when they should be running for their life. If I wanted a small kid to get into a car I would get them no matter the rank or martial arts skills. Young children up to about 12 should be taught how to recognize a dangerous position and what to do to prevent kidnappings and other crimes against them. Teaching about avoiding danger and bullies would be far better for a young child. Showing teaching children basic moves could be done but only for foundation building purposes only. At about 12 the body and the maturity is more apt for learning a martial art.

My 2 ¥

 

[RED]

WWOOEEHOOO! I'm a yellow belt!!!

OK its a big deal to me...I know I need to get a life, right?

 

[Mariachi Joe]

Congrats red, we were all there once and it's the first step on a long journey

 

[DArnold]

(clears throut angrely) The 16 year old is anouyed!!! Lets set some ground rules (as the undeserving see's it). A black belt is just a peice of cloth, it is a symbol. Period. It is a symbol of of knowledge, understnading, and time in the style. However, the young should not be black belts. The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching. A four year cann't (probabaly) teach worth beans. But a sixteen year old might be able. And if not, then someone should email my sensei and tell him that one of the assistent sensei's (who has been teaching since he was sixteen) shouldn't have been teaching. And for that matter neither should I.
Yes many kids are unable (or unwilling) to teach or perform anyother duty expected of the wearer of a black belt. But I know a 6th degree black belt that shouldn't be teaching, and he's in his 30's!!!!! Basing things on age is pointless. It's like saying that I'm unable to do something now, but tomorrow i will magicly be fully able. It makes no sense. Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity.

As my understanding of a Black belt seems to be quite different from everyone here I find some interesting concepts in your logic.

Your comments touch on some tangeble and intangeble items.

You say, "The rank/symbol/cloth strip around the waist also symbolizes that the wearer is capable of teaching."

So you base some of your judgement on the ability to teach.

Is this mearly your concept? Your schools? Your organizations?
And if it is that important wouldn't your requirements/curriculum (of you/your school/your organization) make sure these items were met if you were to promote someone?

Secondly you say, "...Yes there should be a general guide line based on age, but the bulk of it should be based on maturity"

I find this interesting as many students as well as high ranks think it is their god given right to be promoted because they have been around X days working out (Even more amaziang are those without and instructor)

In the orient you are not considered an adult until 40!

A vast majority of schools only base testing/promotions on things like physical ability and time (which I think is only half of what we should be doing)

So my question is: How do you teach (and more importantly) test a students maturity in your class?

I find that trying to draw a concrete line in the sand will only cause you ten-fold more problems as you are trying to do.

 

[wade]

Hmmmm, let's see, people that are under a certain age, (pick your own) should not be considered for black belt because they are not mature adults and can't keep up with adult BB's. Gosh, there are many "adult" BB's that can't keep up with other adult BB's. How many of you here would like to get in the ring with and Olympic level TKD player? I wouldn't. Does this make them any less a BB? In my opinion, No, I don't think so. Of course I'm KKW so maybe I'm a little biased, right terry? I have kids that are Pooms, jr. BB's and I am quite happy with them thank you very much. In fact, I think I'll keep them and maybe promote some more to replace them as they get older.

 

[Mariachi Joe]

Since you did start this thread, what is your opinion on the matter Christina

 

[morph4me]

A persons skill should match the rank that they wear. I attack and defend in the dojo based on the rank of the person I'm facing. If I'm facing a 5'2" 95 lb. woman wearing a black belt I'm going to go all out, and if I'm facing a 250 lb. 6' 5" white belt, I'm going easy. Size, Gender, Age, etc, is irrelevant. I don't question the judgement of the person who bestowed the rank.

 

[wade]

morph4me, what is your age, weight and rank?

 

[morph4me]

53, 210 and shodan

 

[wade]

So if your were attacking a 5'1' female 1st dan you would go all out with full power?

 

[morph4me]

Not full power, I don't go full power in the dojo, but the same power and intensity I would attack any other shodan with, to do less would be, in my opinion, disrespectful of the rank she was wearing.

 

[wade]

I'm confused, earlier you said you would go "all out" if facing a 5'2" woman wearing a BB., doesn't that mean full power, full speed, everything you have ever learned in the arts to prove that you are superior? If your are 53 and 210 lbs you are not a small man, this gives you a 115 lb weight advantage and how tall are you? so...................

In almost every contact sport there are at the least weight limits. Even if you were the same gender do you really feel this would be a fair fight?

Well, I don't think I would want you as one of my BB's, I don't think your attitude quite fits the small safe little world I have built up for my delicate students. The term bully does come to mind though.

OK, your turn.........................

 

[morph4me]

I'm confused, earlier you said you would go "all out" if facing a 5'2" woman wearing a BB., doesn't that mean full power, full speed, everything you have ever learned in the arts to prove that you are superior? If your are 53 and 210 lbs you are not a small man, this gives you a 115 lb weight advantage and how tall are you?

All out in the context of whatever we're doing in the dojo, so I'll go just as hard with each person of the same rank.

In almost every contact sport there are at the least weight limits. Even if you were the same gender do you really feel this would be a fair fight?

In a contact sport with weight limits it wouldn't be an issue, I wouldn't be facing someone that size

Well, I don't think I would want you as one of my BB's, I don't think your attitude quite fits the small safe little world I have built up for my delicate students. The term bully does come to mind though.

That would be your prerogative as the instructor. The women that I have trained with never had a problem with it, and gave as good as they got, and probably more, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for them and we've become close. I have faith that when they leave the dojo, the can handle pretty much whatever comes their way. I can only hope you feel the same about your students.