black belts

[Gerry Seymour]

If you mean that "serious beginner" is a blanket statement than I might see where you're coming from.

So with the kind of difference that you describe between brown and black in NGA than maybe there should be belts in between brown and black. It doesn't really make sense to have going from brown to black to be like going from white directly to black. That's an exaggeration of course.

We've never had a need for any other ranks in there. It fits the progression. By brown belt, students have received the entire core curriculum (only a few bits held back for yudansha to learn) and met the minimum standards for defensive use, so the path from brown to black is about improving ability and learning to teach. It would be safe to compare our ranks to what you're referring to by aligning mainline NGA's purple with the shodan you're thinking of, then keeping each step of promotion aligned (brown = nidan, shodan = sandan, teaching certificate). It's really not such a big jump, since there's no new curriculum introduced in that interim - just a lot of new responsibility accepted. As long as we all know what our own ranks mean, there's no confusion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well because as I mentioned before there are instructors from Japan who move and set up schools in the USA. Being from Japan I would think they would do things the way they're done in the culture that they're originally from and that they grew up in.

That's one approach they could take, and most of us who open a school do something similar: we do what we're used to. Some, however, will have decided to make an adjustment they think better fits the culture they've moved to. I don't see anything wrong with either approach - just different decisions.

 

[Hyoho]

Perhaps in the USA its the almost mythical and magical status that has been associated with the black belt why its often a big jump to get from brown to black in American schools. But as you said Shodan means qualified beginner, at least in Japan it does. So for that reason I wouldn't expect it to be a big jump in terms of time and difficulty to get from brown to black if you're training in Japan under a Japanese instructor, or if you're training in the USA and your instructor is a Japanese immigrant.

Thing is most Budo in Japan simply cover costs. The Nippon Budokan charter specifies that that no money should be made from it. Many groups are directly members or affiliated as its linked to Monbusho (Japan Education). That in turn gives them facilities to train in. People who teach Budo in education are usually members of a Phys/Ed Faculty and are professional educators.

So bearing this in mind Japanese who go to other countries to teach are doing it as a business. All well and good but I knew one who returned to Japan to be treated very badly by his peers. Speaking from experience I see no problems with shugyo (going to Japan to do intensive training for months or a year) and return with a higher rank. Ranks being awarded to promote a specific group in the West should be gone. The days of having a double standard with Japan are over. Plenty of good Westerners out there teaching some good Budo. I was in the rank system for years but left it to train in
'old school' that had no rank as everyday training was more important.

I do have to say that even in Japan.....when you reach or try for a very high ranks is not just based on ability but also a "Get to know you element with committee seniors in that particular Budo. In that I fail as I really don't want socializing to be connected to rank.

Above all we pass people on what they 'can' do. Not what the cant do.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We've never had a need for any other ranks in there. It fits the progression. By brown belt, students have received the entire core curriculum (only a few bits held back for yudansha to learn) and met the minimum standards for defensive use, so the path from brown to black is about improving ability and learning to teach. It would be safe to compare our ranks to what you're referring to by aligning mainline NGA's purple with the shodan you're thinking of, then keeping each step of promotion aligned (brown = nidan, shodan = sandan, teaching certificate). It's really not such a big jump, since there's no new curriculum introduced in that interim - just a lot of new responsibility accepted. As long as we all know what our own ranks mean, there's no confusion.

That's one approach they could take, and most of us who open a school do something similar: we do what we're used to. Some, however, will have decided to make an adjustment they think better fits the culture they've moved to. I don't see anything wrong with either approach - just different decisions.

You do have a point there. When somebody moves to a different culture they adjust to that culture and this would also apply to Japanese instructors who move to the USA. Your system obviously works for your school. The way you describe it it sounds like up through brown belt is all about learning the material and then to go from brown to black is about perfecting what you've learned. You also mentioned that when you go from brown to black you learn how to teach. In my primary dojo you start doing some assistant teaching when you're a brown belt.

Anyway, in academics its 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B and 90 and above is an A. A ten point difference between each grade. Now, lets say that you had to get a 98 or higher to get an A and that 80-97 is a B. That sounds a bit unbalanced to me and they're really making a big deal about giving the A grade to students. That sounds similar to if dojo makes it a big jump to get from brown to black and for it to be proportionally much harder and to take proportionally much longer than to go up any of the earlier belts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Thing is most Budo in Japan simply cover costs. The Nippon Budokan charter specifies that that no money should be made from it. Many groups are directly members or affiliated as its linked to Monbusho (Japan Education). That in turn gives them facilities to train in. People who teach Budo in education are usually members of a Phys/Ed Faculty and are professional educators.

So bearing this in mind Japanese who go to other countries to teach are doing it as a business. All well and good but I knew one who returned to Japan to be treated very badly by his peers. Speaking from experience I see no problems with shugyo (going to Japan to do intensive training for months or a year) and return with a higher rank. Ranks being awarded to promote a specific group in the West should be gone. The days of having a double standard with Japan are over. Plenty of good Westerners out there teaching some good Budo. I was in the rank system for years but left it to train in
'old school' that had no rank as everyday training was more important.

Interesting that in Japan they don't teach martial arts as a business so much. From what I know about the Japanese they are big into business and profit, just look at their role in the car industry for instance. From what I heard about shugyo its really hard, intense training that you don't do on a regular basis but the objective is to push yourself as never before and reach new levels physically and mentally. If I do go to Japan or anywhere else to do shugyo I would be doing it not for the goal of getting a higher rank but for the goal of reaching new levels in body and mind. And yes westerners can be just as good as easterners and they can be excellent instructors.

I do have to say that even in Japan.....when you reach or try for a very high ranks is not just based on ability but also a "Get to know you element with committee seniors in that particular Budo. In that I fail as I really don't want socializing to be connected to rank.

From what I know yes, reaching the very high ranks is dependent on stuff other than skill and ability and some of that is getting to know and being accepted by other members of your martial arts community. Supposedly all ranks after 5th degree are not earned from instructors through demonstration of skill in the martial arts but are rather given to you by your peers as a result of how much you contribute to the art and so forth.

Above all we pass people on what they 'can' do. Not what the cant do.

Well good. I wouldn't want to train in a school that does it otherwise. And that's why I would not be satisfied with buying a belt of whatever color and designs I choose, as some people have suggested.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You do have a point there. When somebody moves to a different culture they adjust to that culture and this would also apply to Japanese instructors who move to the USA. Your system obviously works for your school. The way you describe it it sounds like up through brown belt is all about learning the material and then to go from brown to black is about perfecting what you've learned. You also mentioned that when you go from brown to black you learn how to teach. In my primary dojo you start doing some assistant teaching when you're a brown belt.

Anyway, in academics its 70-79 is a C, 80-89 is a B and 90 and above is an A. A ten point difference between each grade. Now, lets say that you had to get a 98 or higher to get an A and that 80-97 is a B. That sounds a bit unbalanced to me and they're really making a big deal about giving the A grade to students. That sounds similar to if dojo makes it a big jump to get from brown to black and for it to be proportionally much harder and to take proportionally much longer than to go up any of the earlier belts.

The difference is that an academic A is not a progression after a B. It's a better score. To me, it's more like the difference between graduation from elementary school and middle school (no big deal) versus high school (big deal at the time), college (actually kinda big deal), and university (significantly bigger deal, but rarely as celebrated).

 

[Hyoho]

Interesting that in Japan they don't teach martial arts as a business so much. From what I know about the Japanese they are big into business and profit, just look at their role in the car industry for instance. From what I heard about shugyo its really hard, intense training that you don't do on a regular basis but the objective is to push yourself as never before and reach new levels physically and mentally. If I do go to Japan or anywhere else to do shugyo I would be doing it not for the goal of getting a higher rank but for the goal of reaching new levels in body and mind. And yes westerners can be just as good as easterners and they can be excellent instructors.


From what I know yes, reaching the very high ranks is dependent on stuff other than skill and ability and some of that is getting to know and being accepted by other members of your martial arts community. Supposedly all ranks after 5th degree are not earned from instructors through demonstration of skill in the martial arts but are rather given to you by your peers as a result of how much you contribute to the art and so forth.


Well good. I wouldn't want to train in a school that does it otherwise. And that's why I would not be satisfied with buying a belt of whatever color and designs I choose, as some people have suggested.

There are jobs in Japan that are no go unless you have minimum Sandan level. Even if not Dan grades in anything are highly respected when being interviewed for a position.

Godan (5th) plus are far from given. You need the skill as well as peers approval. The gap between nanandan and hachidan is so high only the best with natural fighting abilty will get there.

When I took my first national grade (Rokudan) there were nearly 3000 entrants. The percentage that will pass has already been decided even if your are good enough. Some friends of mine that had practiced around 30 years had tried around ten times. So much as move wrong after the initial etiquette and it's a yellow flag (seen enough thanks try again next year).

The way I look at it you can be doing Budo or whatever you like but it's the Japanese method of repetition, try try and try again to do better. the aim for perfection that has carried on from things like Budo into industry. Every year my students graduated, even if they never found the time to practice again? I just knew in my heart that they would succeed in something with the values they had been taught.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The difference is that an academic A is not a progression after a B. It's a better score. To me, it's more like the difference between graduation from elementary school and middle school (no big deal) versus high school (big deal at the time), college (actually kinda big deal), and university (significantly bigger deal, but rarely as celebrated).

OK than how about this. Lets say you're taking history classes in high school or college. You start with History I. After that in the next year or next semester you move on to History II and then History III and finally History IV, each year or semester moving up one. Now, History IV isn't necessarily harder than History III, II or I its simply sequential. Nevertheless each history class is a progression from the previous class.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK than how about this. Lets say you're taking history classes in high school or college. You start with History I. After that in the next year or next semester you move on to History II and then History III and finally History IV, each year or semester moving up one. Now, History IV isn't necessarily harder than History III, II or I its simply sequential. Nevertheless each history class is a progression from the previous class.

That's all accurate, but not necessarily analogous to the way rank progression works in many arts.

 

[Human Makiwara]

The difference is proficiency in your art. You may learn a new kata for each new Dan rank from 1-3 (depending on your school/style) but your overall understanding of the material you are studying is greater.

We had paper writing, teaching and tournament requirements at the end of the kyu ranks and into shodan. Being able to legitimately relay what you have learned to another student is a lot harder than it seems. Competing in tournament and performing in public demonstrations are also more difficult than just showing up for class.

Every school is different. Every teacher too. The old saying you get out of it what you put in holds very true here.

 

[PhotonGuy]

True, it does. But that's when the belt doesn't really matter any more. In a rank system, we all want to get that black one....and, then, you know.

And then you just keep on training to keep developing skill and ability, at least that's what I do. As it is, after you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. After you get a black belt you start to train even harder, at least that's my experience.

 

[Hanshi]

Interesting post, pgsmith. My karate rank differs between two organizations I belong to although both recognize my highest. In my youth I competed some and later put on tournaments myself. I also was active in officiating within other's tourneys and took students to tournaments around the state. While active, it was never required to compete or be involved in tournaments. Just me, but I don't like the idea of tourney participation being required for rank. It is a fun and a learning experience but adds little to actual fighting ability, which has always been first in my career. The real stuff one does on the street is mostly banned in tournaments. I was never especially good at point sparring but when it came to boxing, where I could actually "hit" my opponent, I did much better. Other's mileage may vary.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

what is the difference between the first/second and third dan in black belts?
And when i mean difference i mean difference in what you learn when you go up in belts.

Let me explain it for you. These guys are all crazy, don't listen to them.

1st Dan - knows nothing but how to find the changing room. But he knows he knows nothing. The best black belt.
2nd Dan - knows nothing but thinks he knows something. Gets beat up in class a lot by brown belts.
3rd Dan - Entitled to be addressed as 'sensei'. Gains 50 pounds, buys a new gi.
4th Dan - Opens dojo, fails, goes back to original dojo. Buys sports car.
5th Dan - Opens dojo, succeeds. Takes students to tournaments, ignores rules against coaching from sidelines. Thinks he can still spar. He cannot.
6th Dan - Goes to tournaments and stands around talking with other high Dan ranks. Has run belt sander over black belt so that it's so frayed it is barely holding together.
7th Dan - Might actually know something, but isn't talking. Gets red-and-white panel belt, which curiously is still called a black belt. Starts to add titles like Shihan, Doshi, Big Kahuna, Mostacholli, etc. to actual Dan rank.
8th Dan - Writes a bad book full of bad advice that only students buy and no one reads. Affects a slight Asian accent even if not Asian.
9th Dan - Has a string of dojos, others teach for him. Goes to Hall of Fame banquets that he pays to attend. Trophy wife.
10th Dan - Dies. People talk nice about him.

 

[Hyoho]

Here's my list.
1st Dan - Practice
2nd Dan - Practice and stand there as a practice dummy for kids. (Before you learn to hit people you need to be hit and lose a lot)
3rd Dan - Practice and manage to occasionally hit my teacher.
4th Dan - Travel all over the place extra teaching school, uni. There are not enough older sensei to go round as WWll banned Budo for 7/8 years.
5th Dan - Now its full time practices/teaching morning, evening, all weekend.
6th Dan - More of the same but now I have judge as well and do association work as its national level. My own practice? Join a teachers club, police practice. Take part in teachers competition.
7th Dan - More of the same. damn, in a population of 2 million there are only 5 other guys my age and rank. Now I have to participate in "everything".

In conclusion and 27 dan grades later in various arts I gave up at 42 to concentrate on Kobudo where there are "no" ranks. I just wanted to practice. Still teaching and doing international seminars but through over use and over training my knees are giving up on me! For some its a hobby. For me it's industrial injury sustained from a job.

 

[Tames D]

Here's my list.
1st Dan -$500
2nd Dan - $1,000
3rd Dan - $2,000
4th Dan - $4,000
5th Dan - $8,500
6th Dan - $10,000
7th Dan - $15,000

Cash, Check, Credit Card

 

[Buka]

Let me explain it for you. These guys are all crazy, don't listen to them.

1st Dan - knows nothing but how to find the changing room. But he knows he knows nothing. The best black belt.
2nd Dan - knows nothing but thinks he knows something. Gets beat up in class a lot by brown belts.
3rd Dan - Entitled to be addressed as 'sensei'. Gains 50 pounds, buys a new gi.
4th Dan - Opens dojo, fails, goes back to original dojo. Buys sports car.
5th Dan - Opens dojo, succeeds. Takes students to tournaments, ignores rules against coaching from sidelines. Thinks he can still spar. He cannot.
6th Dan - Goes to tournaments and stands around talking with other high Dan ranks. Has run belt sander over black belt so that it's so frayed it is barely holding together.
7th Dan - Might actually know something, but isn't talking. Gets red-and-white panel belt, which curiously is still called a black belt. Starts to add titles like Shihan, Doshi, Big Kahuna, Mostacholli, etc. to actual Dan rank.
8th Dan - Writes a bad book full of bad advice that only students buy and no one reads. Affects a slight Asian accent even if not Asian.
9th Dan - Has a string of dojos, others teach for him. Goes to Hall of Fame banquets that he pays to attend. Trophy wife.
10th Dan - Dies. People talk nice about him.

Spit Rolling Rock all over my laptop.

 

[Buka]

Having been down this road more than a bit, all I can tell you is this - those guys who were once white belts, and are now wearing belts with stripes, bells and whistles, are the same guys. They just fight better. Or not.

 

[JR 137]

Here's my list.
1st Dan -$500
2nd Dan - $1,000
3rd Dan - $2,000
4th Dan - $4,000
5th Dan - $8,500
6th Dan - $10,000
7th Dan - $15,000

Cash, Check, Credit Card

10th dan - Priceless*

* Used to be you were already dead when promoted to 10th dan

 

[Bill Mattocks]

10th dan - Priceless*

* Used to be you were already dead when promoted to 10th dan

I forgot to mention that once a 10th Dan passes, lots of people will suddenly pop up and claim to have trained with him and/or to have been promoted by him. Amazing how many students a dead 10th Dan had.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I forgot to mention that once a 10th Dan passes, lots of people will suddenly pop up and claim to have trained with him and/or to have been promoted by him. Amazing how many students a dead 10th Dan had.

I think I'll proclaim myself a dead 10th dan. Maybe I'll pick up some new students that way. Unfortunately, many of them will probably not be near enough to actually come to class...