Black Belt Magazine

[TLH3rdDan]

Has anyone read the latest issue of Black Belt with the article on the US army going back to Tae Kwon Do??? was it just me or did it seem like a Mcdojo got a hold of that colonel and sold him on this... honestly do they really think that any individual can advance from white belt to brown belt in one year by atending one 40 minute class a week and then expect them to be able to apply what they learn in combat? or did i just totally missunderstand that article. and then you seem them sparring what looked like point style matches in the pictures and them saying that that would prepare them for real life combat. it also mentioned briefly that they were going to try to incorparte what the gracies have been teaching into it as well. any thoughts or comments on this whole thing?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Nope, I don't think aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa let me change that...... I know you can't make brown in one year going to 1 40 minute class per week and BE ANY GOOD. that is the key. NO you can't point spar and have no contact and be TRUTHFULLY prepared for the street! You know that, and I know that.. but hey.... it sure sounds great in an advertisement for new students.

MARTIAL ARTS CLASS

NO CONTACT
ONLY 40 MINUTES A WEEK
BE READY TO TAKE ON ANYONE IN 30 MINUTES OR LESS

:rofl:
ONLY IN AMERICA

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

This is another case of an officer looking for things to load up into his Officer Evaluation Report...

For you civilians out there, us folks in the military get rated on our performance. Officers get promoted based on their appraisals, and their ratings are often inflated and exaggerated to make minor accomplishments seem like parting the Red Sea.

This is another case of just such an inflation. Some colonel who knew some TKD instructor managed to get said TKD instructor hooked up with a contract to teach military personnel. This colonel apparently managed to convince his superiors that it was a good idea, which leads me to believe that none of them ever practiced martial arts at all, ever.

If you see martial arts and the military in the same article, ask yourself why, when armed with machine guns and automatic weapons, we would have any realistic tactical application of hand to hand combat techniques, especially when those techniques were learned in such a questionable setting...

Gambarimasu.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

oh it gets even better here is the brown belt curriculum for this program (taught after 24 weeks of training):

"Teach: hammer fist
Taegeuk o jang (form number 5) moves 1-8

Practice: straight punch.....................................100 reps
low forearm block................................20 reps
middle forearm block...........................20 reps
middle knifehand block........................20 reps
high forearm block...............................20 reps
high knifehand block............................20 reps
middle inward block..............................20 reps
knifehand strike....................................20 reps
hammer fist strike.................................20 reps
front kick...............................................20 reps
round kick.............................................20 reps
side kick................................................20 reps
front/round kick combination.................5 reps
front/side kick combination....................5 reps
taegeuk il jang (form number 1)............1 rep
taegeuk sam jang (form number 3).......1 rep
taegeuk o jang, moves 1-8....................5 reps
break falls (left, right, rear)....................10 reps
warrior combat defense no. 1................5 reps
warrior combat defense no. 2................5 reps
warrior combat defense no. 3................5 reps

the second week of brown belt training adds the elbow strike and backfist as well as moves 9-20 of taegeuk o jang, the third week adds the back kick, the fourth week adds the round kick/back kick combination and warrior combat defense no.4. the fifth week add warrior combat defense no. 5 and no. 6. the sixth week thru the 11th no new techniques, but everything that has been learned is further ingrained into each soldier's psyche. the 12th week cumlminates in the brown belt test."

"One specialized component of the program is called "warrior combat defenses." The fighting sequences are basically one-step sparring techniques. They are simple and direct - typically following a block-strike-takedown-finish progression."

"all soldiers who participate (14000 the entire 2nd infantry division) in warrior taekwondo spar. It is considered an essential component of their reality based martial arts preparation. The unit trainer determines when a student is ready to begin. Most start within the first three months. To date, sparring has been more sport-oriented than practical. The objective is to make a little contact, to experience hitting and getting hit, to get the heart pumping and to build confidence."

 

[tshadowchaser]

They should hang the man who said this is milatary training. It sounds like a good way to get his people killed. I think all of his people should get realistic combate hand to hand training but learning point fighting and do touch training is pure nonsence.
These guy/girls need to learn how to hit and take a hit. they should be realistic in their thinking in kicks. Im not to sure a kick to the head is really acombat technique, unless the opponent is on the ground. And they should train every day or at least 5 days a week for more than an hour if they want to survive.
Just my thoughts
Shadow:asian:

 

[arnisador]

That's part of it perhaps; the main thing to realize is that this isn't endorsed by the whole army, just one division of it.

There's little need for a soldier to know hand-to-hand unarmed combat these days; it's more for training aggression and confidence.

 

[bdparsons]

Wow, does this bring back memories (not all good).

I remember the first OER I received and said to myself, "Is this talking about me?" but the longer I've been out in the civilian world (ten years now) I see that it truly prepared me for the reality of the inflated resumes and overblown job descriptions that we have to face day-to-day.

Unfortunately, I don't think the deception that has occured in this situation is restricted to those involved, military or not. How many "professional" martial artists use real or imagined affiliations with famous martial artists to try and boost their own image among prospective students and colleagues. Or how many have used half-baked "self-defense courses" to increase enrollment; or better yet advertising "cardio-kickboxing" or "tae-bo" or "insert your own program here" without a very clear disclaimer to those involved that they are not learning fighting skills. Before we point a finger and wag it self-righteously, maybe we should look in the mirror. The American martial arts community is overflowing with the over-inflation of personal qualifications and the practice of promising much and delivering little.

May you never have to use your skills.
Bill Parsons

 

[bdparsons]

"There's little need for a soldier to know hand-to-hand unarmed combat these days; it's more for training aggression and confidence."

Actually I would disagree. With the current world situation it's becoming evident that ground troops are much more likely to be involved in urban combat. That being the case, it's my opinion that light infantry be familiar with unarmed hand-to-hand. But in light of my previous post, the quandry lies in what is adequate training. I truly don't know what the answer is, other than making sure that soldiers are fully aware of what their limitations are. But in a true life-and-death situation, we usually find our limitations are not what we thought they were (ask any living Medal of Honor recipients).

May you never have to use your skills.
Bill Parsons

 

[arnisador]

You make a good point and I agree to an extent: It's becoming more important than it has been (trench warfare, though that involved bayonets too). But even in the situations you mention--which is not a situation every combat arms soldier is likely to find himself in though some certainly must--what we really have is CQC, which includes short-range use of a pistol as well as the use of a rifle as a club/bayonet and possibly unarmed or knife combat. In most cases we're still talking about teams of at least three soldiers, with firearms and grenades, defending themelves with weapons. It's more likely that they'll be grabbed but even still CQC is much more than just H2H--it includes how to enter a room, etc. There's a lot more.

I still think confidence is the biggest reason! A soldier who feels he can fight with his bare hands just feels more confident.

 

[MartialArtist]

In the military, there is much to learn.

TKD is great when used correctly, same with anything. And I've learned a great deal of things in the military.

The reason for studying it? Well, the training is basically the same. Running uphill in 30 degree weather was something everyone did in both MA training and in the military.

Point aside, there really isn't a great deal to learn about hand-to-hand fighting directly. Indirectly though, it helps with everything from your accuracy and speed to your coordination and hell, even some principles. Yes, the principles of Sun Tzu, Mongolian tactics, etc. are taught in the military for both enlisted and commissioned men.

 

[Matt Stone]

I will never be one to say that someone, especially a soldier, can find absolutely no benefit in martial arts training. It develops many things other than "just" H2H skills.

However.

As a soldier, former infantryman, former cavalry scout, former drill sergeant, as well as a hard core traditionalist in CMA, I will say that the sportified training that most TKD emphasizes (can't really speak to what is being trained for 2ID in Korea; I was in Korea in 89-90, and the Korean soldiers I knew, including a Vietnam Veteran of the White Horse division of the ROK Army, all said that even they thought TKD was good for nothing other than sports events and was worthless in "real" combat), and the learning of forms (although I am a huge advocate of forms training for martial artists) are a waste of a soldier's time.

The amount of time available to the commander for training of soldiers on tasks other than those in the unit Mission Essential Task List (METL) is minimal at best. The time must be used to the maximum benefit. The currently approved combatives training is a far cry from perfect, but it is also far and away better than what was advocated in years past.

If something new was to be introduced, TKD would not be my recommendation. Perhaps Modern Arnis or Krav Maga (though I know little about that program beyond the fact that it is rapidly turning into a profitable franchise on the West Coast) would fit the bill better. I know from my own training that Modern Arnis is learned much more quickly than some other arts, and with the unity of application of techniques (a strike with a stick has a direct translation into a strike with the hand or a cut with a blade), and would fit a soldier's needs more easily than trying to perform high head level kicks while wearing combat boots (not saying that is what they are being taught, but that is the image that leaps to mind).

Bottom line, however, I would rather spend that extra money on ammunition to allow me to hit the range more often, and with more weapons, than learning how to punch and kick. I don't really plan on letting folks get that close to me...

 

[bdparsons]

My choice for on-going martial arts training to develo H2H would be Hapkido. Ask anyone who has been exposed to the Tiger Divisions of the ROK Marines.

Arnisador--I agree with your assumptions, but I think proper MA training would be a good supplement to the rest of the training.

May you never have to use your skills.
Bill

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by bdparsons

Arnisador--I agree with your assumptions, but I think proper MA training would be a good supplement to the rest of the training.

No argument! I'm glad they're doing something. Frankly, they do often need it for the classical story of the port call where a sailor gets into a barfight (and so on).

If I recall correctly, they also have some BJJ mixed in with the TKD.

 

[white dragon]

As a British citizen I feel it might duty to explain to you people what is happening here. You see, we've wormed our way inside your military and are now teaching them useless skills which will no doubt help to hinder them in the battle field. This is because we're planning an invasion. We're still pissed about the fact you throw all that tea into the ocean many years ago. You're going down Yankies.....

 

[Strike6]

I was looking for a copy of the article on line and came across this forum. I should just let it go, but decided to respond anyway. I'm the guy that started the program. Here's the story. The new commanding general asked the senior officer and NCO leaders what was good and bad about the division. We all told him that the chorus had to go. He asked for an alternative means of providing something unique to the division that could be used to bolster morale and help us reach out the Korean community in which we lived. I suggested we field a TKD team since the other Korean Army divisions each had one. He liked the idea, but added that when he served in the division in the 1970s, TKD training was part of every unit's PT program. He wanted to bring it back and, since I had martial arts experience -- my brigade was given the lead for developing the program. Understand the Army already has an excellent combatives program based on Gracie jiu-jitsu (in fact, I had already had Rorion Gracie train instructors in my brigade twice that year and was pushing for more of this type of training for the division IN ADDITION to the TKD). The program was meant to 1) expose all soldiers in the division to TKD as part of understanding the country and culture in which they were serving for a year, 2) to add variety to the physical training program (in addition to the usual running, calisthenics, strength training, ruck marching, Army combatives training, etc.), 3) to provide a venue for competition with Korean military and university teams, and hopefully spur their interest in more in-depth pursuit of some form of martial arts training. And, we had to do all of the above in one session a week -- a tall order. It was unique to the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. If we had been in Japan, it would have karate; Brazil -- Gracie JJ; Thailand -- muay thai...you get the idea. The program was good for most soldiers -- fun, different, but not and never meant to be a way to produce an ultimate fighter or even replace the Army combatives program. The guys with martial arts experience roundly criticized the program -- but that's to be expected. To this day, no one can agree on the best combatives program for the military. As far as the comments about the OER are concerned...those who know me know better, so I'll just let that one ride.

 

[Last Fearner]

Welcome, Strike6!

Wow! Thanks, Strike6, for coming on here, and clearing up this issue. I think this is a perfect example how people go off on a tangent without having all the facts, or knowing what details surround the decisions regarding someone's actions.

I can fully understand your predicament in attempting to give as much as you can, in a condensed program, for the purpose of public relations. Personally, I do believe there is much more to genuine Taekwondo to be offered our military than "kicks to the head," but that is often the first thing that comes to people's minds when they hear "Taekwondo" mentioned. When I train military, police, and executive protection agents, their training is always modified for maximum effectiveness. Even if the military were to focus on the Hapkido aspect of Korean Martial Art, I believe it is fair call the main heading "Taekwondo" since that is the chosen name for their National Art.

When I was in Army Basic (back in 1981), they had suspended the hand-to-hand combat training because, as the sergeants put it, "the soldiers were learning just enough to go into town on pass, and get their butts kicked!" One sergeant, who was suppose to be the base self-defense instructor, was a 1st Dan in Taekwondo. He was ticked at me because I was a private, but I out-ranked him (I was 2nd Dan then).

Anyhow, it is nice to hear your side of the story. I hope you stick around to become a contributing member here at Martial Talk. Perhaps you can go to the "Meet and Greet" section, and introduce yourself to everyone, then pop into the Korean Martial Art section and comment on the various Taekwondo threads. This is really a great forum!

Chief Master D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Cirdan]

The program was meant to 1) expose all soldiers in the division to TKD as part of understanding the country and culture in which they were serving for a year, 2) to add variety to the physical training program (in addition to the usual running, calisthenics, strength training, ruck marching, Army combatives training, etc.), 3) to provide a venue for competition with Korean military and university teams, and hopefully spur their interest in more in-depth pursuit of some form of martial arts training. And, we had to do all of the above in one session a week -- a tall order. It was unique to the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea. If we had been in Japan, it would have karate; Brazil -- Gracie JJ; Thailand -- muay thai...you get the idea. The program was good for most soldiers -- fun, different, but not and never meant to be a way to produce an ultimate fighter or even replace the Army combatives program.

Sounds like a sensible program to me. The points mentioned above far outweighs any direct battlefield application of the arts. Refreshing to hear of something as levelheaded as this in a time when "deadly (insert art here) as used by the armed forces" programs are popping up all over the place.

I salute you.:tank: