Bite me

[kickcatcher]

Shesulsa,
I appreciate that you are a senior staff member and all, but you really ought to read the posts before trying to pick them apart or applying some sort of misguided "anti-sport" interpretation to them.

I have said that biting is an option and I agree that if it is reasonable force, then you should do it. But I have described why I think it is harder to train and why I doubt my own likelihood of actually doing it for real - under fight pressure I tend to revert to my stock moves -that goes for if I'm sparring someone better than me and it goes for a real fight (IMO).

You may believe that you would be able to do a move for real that you haven't done even close tofully in training, cool. If so then you have greater faith than I.

 

[kickcatcher]

1) Please detail your typical training session.

Depends. Generally it would involve a warm up, some low/medium resistance drills, some padwork or like, and some sparring - often both heavy contact striking and "rolling" grappling.

2) When you are training your punches, are you and your partner wearing any type of protective gear?

Typically if we are going heavy we wear boxing gloves and gum shields, often headguards too although I don't like them. Sometimes the sparring is asymetrical and only one is wearing gloves, the other restricting themselves to grappling etc (this is more technically Alive drilling).

3) Do you dismiss things such as biting, knee breaks, arm breaks and neck breaks because you can't "pressure test" them?

I don't dismiss them as possible, but I don't count them at all highly in my personal gameplan because I cannot train them at the same intensity, thus the step-ip between training and 'real' is greater - often far far far greater. My choice and I think it is the right approach. If you want to hypothosise about how you can break someone's knee with a sidekick if it's for real, even though you don't even throw that move in sparring, your call.

4) Sorry, but unless you're throwing full power, full contact punches w/o gear, there will be a distinct difference.

Well done. It's all about step-up. I've hit people for real without gloves, many people here have, no big deal. Do you spar without gear full on?

 

[shesulsa]

You may believe that you would be able to do a move for real that you haven't done even close tofully in training, cool. If so then you have greater faith than I.

So all those police officers shoot people in real life when they go to the academy? Where do they get the bodies? :lol2:

And for the record ... when staff members involve themselves in the conversation, we are posting as people, not as staff.

 

[MJS]

Depends. Generally it would involve a warm up, some low/medium resistance drills, some padwork or like, and some sparring - often both heavy contact striking and "rolling" grappling.

ok.

Typically if we are going heavy we wear boxing gloves and gum shields, often headguards too although I don't like them. Sometimes the sparring is asymetrical and only one is wearing gloves, the other restricting themselves to grappling etc (this is more technically Alive drilling).

ok.

I don't dismiss them as possible, but I don't count them at all highly in my personal gameplan because I cannot train them at the same intensity, thus the step-ip between training and 'real' is greater - often far far far greater. My choice and I think it is the right approach. If you want to hypothosise about how you can break someone's knee with a sidekick if it's for real, even though you don't even throw that move in sparring, your call.

Just seems to me, that because you may not be able to fit them in during training, or because you feel that they can't be tested, you feel that they're uselsss. You appear to be gearing your training for a specific thing, MMA, and others gear theirs towards something else, SD.

Well done. It's all about step-up. I've hit people for real without gloves, many people here have, no big deal. Do you spar without gear full on?

If you feel the need to constantly gear up and go at it full force all the time, more power to you. That is your choice. Have I sparred w/o gear? Yes, but as I've said before, as well as others...MMA is not my career. I have other priorities in life, so putting my body through daily abuse is something I avoid. Do I have some training sessions where my partners and I kick it up a notch? Sure, but again, not on a daily basis.

Mike

 

[still learning]

Hello, In every type of fighting (tournements and UFC's and others)....one of the rules is NO BITING. Why because it works...if you are grab or tackle to the ground, this works fast for escaping.

They say you can catch a diaease....but if you are fighting for your life..better to escape with a bite, than die by a choke?

Eat beef Jerky...builds muscle in the mouth (especially the tough ones)...Aloha

 

[kickcatcher]

Just seems to me, that because you may not be able to fit them in during training, or because you feel that they can't be tested, you feel that they're uselsss. You appear to be gearing your training for a specific thing, MMA, and others gear theirs towards something else, SD.

If you feel the need to constantly gear up and go at it full force all the time, more power to you. That is your choice. Have I sparred w/o gear? Yes, but as I've said before, as well as others...MMA is not my career. I have other priorities in life, so putting my body through daily abuse is something I avoid. Do I have some training sessions where my partners and I kick it up a notch? Sure, but again, not on a daily basis.

Mike

We are both talking SD, our viewpoints on training methodologies are just a bit different. I do see stuff like "just break his knees" as pretty useless advice to a typical MA student because, as you say, you cannot pressure test it. It's not so much whether it is possible in the absolute sense, just how easy it is to do under pressure considering you haven't entrained it under pressure. It's theory based - I prefer to have a toolkit that is practice based.

I also think that heavy contact sparring is not so dangerous or inaccessible to 'normal' people as is often made out. I suspect the real reason it isn't more common is largely down to the fact that many MA students are a bit wimpy about it and many instructors cannot afford to turn the wimps away. "We're too deadly to spar" and variations thereof tend to be excuses more than truths.

I'm not saying everyone should go full-tilt all the time, just that if you want to get maximum benefit you should find the rules/contact level that gets you as close to your target activity as possible that is safely sustainable for you - and that isn't semi-contact points stop for anyone normal.

The big thing, which I keep saying, is self-honesty. We mustn't kid ourselves or others that the way we train is any more hardcore/effective than it really is. On MA discussion forums everyone's club/training is the hardcore....

 

[scottcatchot]

Great thread, good differing views. IMHO go with whatever it takes. If thats biting, spitting, screaming like a banshee while kicking wildly do whatever you must to survive. As for training to bite, well I train my bite everytime I eat a good juicy steak . To me, the opportunity to bite would more readily present itself while in a clinch or grappling situation and there really isn't a whole lot to practice, open your mouth and grab what you can. It is very effective. I used it one time to make apoint while training. It was during an inservice and our defensive tactics instructor was going on and on about how it was impossible to escape an arm bar and if you had an offender in one they couldn't hit you blah, blah,. SO I pointed out that there was the potential for an offender to bite you. Well he then said it couldn't be done and wanted to prove so he threw me and applied an arm bar, I bit his leg..etc. Point is it is an efective tool. It will not always work, but there is no technique that works all the time or else everyone would learn the one perfect kill shot and be done with it.

 

[MJS]

We are both talking SD, our viewpoints on training methodologies are just a bit different. I do see stuff like "just break his knees" as pretty useless advice to a typical MA student because, as you say, you cannot pressure test it. It's not so much whether it is possible in the absolute sense, just how easy it is to do under pressure considering you haven't entrained it under pressure. It's theory based - I prefer to have a toolkit that is practice based.

I also think that heavy contact sparring is not so dangerous or inaccessible to 'normal' people as is often made out. I suspect the real reason it isn't more common is largely down to the fact that many MA students are a bit wimpy about it and many instructors cannot afford to turn the wimps away. "We're too deadly to spar" and variations thereof tend to be excuses more than truths.

I'm not saying everyone should go full-tilt all the time, just that if you want to get maximum benefit you should find the rules/contact level that gets you as close to your target activity as possible that is safely sustainable for you - and that isn't semi-contact points stop for anyone normal.

The big thing, which I keep saying, is self-honesty. We mustn't kid ourselves or others that the way we train is any more hardcore/effective than it really is. On MA discussion forums everyone's club/training is the hardcore....

Yes, apparently we do see things a little different. You are more than welcome to have your beliefs in what you think is right, wrong or whatever, and everyone else is entitled to their opinion as well. I would have to say though, that just because something cant be tested in the way you're talking, that is should be completely disregarded as useless. If that was the case, there would be many tools that we have that we may as well throw out, if we go on what you're saying. Basically, you're limiting yourself to pretty much punches and kicks. Again, if that is what you choose to do, thats fine.

As for the sparring. Again, keep in mind that everyone is going to have different training goals. If someone chooses to go all out everyday, good for them. It is something that I choose not to do on a daily basis, but it is something that I do.

I do find it interesting though that you say that eye gouges, knee breaks, etc. do not have a high precentage in your eyes. Many of the RBSD people out there focus on targeting those areas, so apparently they feel they are worthwhile targets.

Mike

 

[lalom]

Give the right cicumstance i would not think twice about bitting someone. If It might save my life or keep me out of the hospital I might just do it

I don't think "I just might do it." I certainly would bite someon! I don't care who or where? If it saves my life bring it! Better them than I.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Biting comes natural, I dont think its something that has to be instilled into a person. But I do think that you should be taught when the best time to bite is, and how to keep control of the bite to prevent being bit back.
Example 1. When Grappling, while you are in someones gaurd, they generally pull your head close to prevent you from striking. As your head is there, its right by there neck. Open big and grab the jugular, and hold on. You now control the situation. What you can do is apply enough pressure to the bite until they start to loose alot of blood, and then wait for them to pass out from blood loss.
You dont want to tear through the vein because then there is nothing to hold onto unless you can get the other one, and thats un likely because they will be wise to your game and try to get away, so hold on and apply enough pressure to hold them still and make them loose blood. Once you bite deep enough for the blood to flow, the person you have isnt going to flail and squirm too much if you just hold still, because that will just cause them to hurt them selves worse. Just lay still and wait for them to pass out.
If they dont pass out then you need to cut a little deeper. Just cut in and hold on. If they yank your head away they are in even bigger trouble. Most people will lay there until they pass out rather that yanking your teeth out of them, which would mean CERTAIN death.
Food for thought. I hope I'm not freaking people out to much here, but this is some great real world self defence that will work on someone twice as strong as you. This is how my mind works during training. Of course I'm not hurting my ukis, but its something that needs to be brought into the open when your fellow training partners start to get cocky about there grappling skills. If I get taken to the ground during a streetfight, that person is going to be my lunch the first chance I get!

 

[Fluffy]

Three words. Blood borne disease.

Ditto! But, I would as a last resort..........

 

[KenpoTex]

First of all...I'm a big fan of "dirty fighting" biting, eye-gouging, fish-hooking, spitting, tearing, and whatever else. I think these tactics really shine at clinch range and in groundfighting situations.

Example 1. When Grappling, while you are in someones gaurd, they generally pull your head close to prevent you from striking. As your head is there, its right by there neck. Open big and grab the jugular, and hold on. You now control the situation. What you can do is apply enough pressure to the bite until they start to loose alot of blood, and then wait for them to pass out from blood loss.
You dont want to tear through the vein because then there is nothing to hold onto unless you can get the other one, and thats un likely because they will be wise to your game and try to get away, so hold on and apply enough pressure to hold them still and make them loose blood. Once you bite deep enough for the blood to flow, the person you have isnt going to flail and squirm too much if you just hold still, because that will just cause them to hurt them selves worse. Just lay still and wait for them to pass out.
If they dont pass out then you need to cut a little deeper. Just cut in and hold on. If they yank your head away they are in even bigger trouble. Most people will lay there until they pass out rather that yanking your teeth out of them, which would mean CERTAIN death.

I personally wouldn't want to just hang out and wait for the guy to pass out. I view biting and the other "dirty fighting" methods as ways to distract or freak-out the person so that they give you an opening to strike or get away. Let's look at the scenario you presented (in someone's guard, being pulled in). I would have no problem biting in this situation. However, when I sink my pearly-whites into this guys neck, face, or chest; I'd imagine that he's probably going to suddenly be very worried about getting me to quit biting him. At this point, I'd imagine that he'd probably give me an opportunity to pass guard, or to simply create enough space to start dropping elbows on him, or to access a weapon. Just my $0.02.

On this issue of blood-borne pathogens, there have been several discussions on this issue on another board I frequent. One of the gentlemen over there is the owner of a reality-based SD school in New Mexico. Anyway, he contacted one of the state pathologists (it may have been CDC, don't remember off the top of my head) and the response he got was that there is minimal risk of actually contracting a disease because of blood in the mouth. This is due to the acids and bacteria in the mouth and in the saliva which neutralize the germs. I'm not saying that I wouldn't go to the doctor and get some antibiotics if I took a bite out of someone (better safe than sorry) but apparently, the chance of contracting a disease is less likely than most people (including myself before hearing this) think.

 

[shesulsa]

On this issue of blood-borne pathogens, there have been several discussions on this issue on another board I frequent. One of the gentlemen over there is the owner of a reality-based SD school in New Mexico. Anyway, he contacted one of the state pathologists (it may have been CDC, don't remember off the top of my head) and the response he got was that there is minimal risk of actually contracting a disease because of blood in the mouth. This is due to the acids and bacteria in the mouth and in the saliva which neutralize the germs. I'm not saying that I wouldn't go to the doctor and get some antibiotics if I took a bite out of someone (better safe than sorry) but apparently, the chance of contracting a disease is less likely than most people (including myself before hearing this) think.

We've talked about it here before, too, and the topic of blood-borne pathogens did arise.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

First of all...I'm a big fan of "dirty fighting" biting, eye-gouging, fish-hooking, spitting, tearing, and whatever else. I think these tactics really shine at clinch range and in groundfighting situations.
.
.
.

That's what I'm talking about, do it just to get that opening either to strike back, or to shut it down and flee. Anything to save your *** in that situation... :EG:

 

[DeLamar.J]

That's what I'm talking about, do it just to get that opening either to strike back, or to shut it down and flee. Anything to save your *** in that situation... :EG:

You can also bite to make a nasty scar, giving them an everyday reminder of the errors of violence, and the error of attacking the wrong martial artist.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Well it's a given as a last resort, so would eye gouging..

 

[Hand Sword]

I say if it comes down to it, go for anything! It's a matter of your life if you get into that situation.

 

[jgrimm01]

I also think that heavy contact sparring is not so dangerous or inaccessible to 'normal' people as is often made out. I suspect the real reason it isn't more common is largely down to the fact that many MA students are a bit wimpy about it and many instructors cannot afford to turn the wimps away. "We're too deadly to spar" and variations thereof tend to be excuses more than truths.

I suspect that your 'suspicion' is heavily testosterone laden and machismo. I think your reasoning is total crap. Some people are professionals that have to attend work the next day, or have kids at home/in class and would choose lighter contact for those reasons. To infer that choice is being made out of 'wimpiness' or 'lack of toughness' is not only infantile but severely ignorant.

IMO.

 

[kickcatcher]

Hi, thanks for contributing. No, I stand by my suspicions, based on my time in MA. I put myself through heavy sparring. It's not as hardcore as it theoretically could be but then I'm not kidding myself otherwise - but I train myself to spar much heavier than the vast majority of mainstream clubs/students I've seen and trained with - and I believe that they could step it up a lot relative to what they are doing, and not suffer significant injury nor visible bruises etc - I have sparred and gone to work the next day - never had a visible injury that would have prohibited going to work - never known anyone else to either. Labelling me as machoistic is rather stupid.

You sound like you are making excuses to yourself not to train heavier contact.

 

[jgrimm01]

Not making excuses whatsoever. I do train hard. I've sparred many times heavy contact. I've been thru the pain of cracked ribs, etc, and have missed work because of it. I choose to go lighter because I see no reason to beat the hell out of someone for practice.

Just a difference of opinion, mind you. I was merely saying I found it offensive and arrogant to make the claim you did. There are those out here that choose to not train heavy contact for whatever reasons, but to generalize them into a category of wimps because of it is wrong.