Bill OKs Force Against Police

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
http://www.policeone.com/use-of-for...-bill-that-OKs-force-against-police-officers/

INDIANAPOLIS — The Indiana House has approved a bill laying out when people are justified in using force against police officers.
The House voted 74-24 Thursday in favor of the bill that's a response to the public uproar over a state Supreme Court ruling that residents could not resist officers even during an illegal entry.
The measure specifies residents are protected by the state's self-defense law if they reasonably believe force is necessary to protect themselves from unlawful actions by an officer.

Supporters said the proposal strengthens the rights of homeowners while also making clear that anyone who is committing a crime isn't justified in using force against an officer.
"There are citizens of this state who understand … that they need to be protected," said Rep. Jud McMillin, R-Brookville.
Opponents argued the Legislature shouldn't give people justification for attacking officers.
"Fifteen thousand disagree with this bill. The men and women that are guarding the streets that you live on right now while you're sitting here, they disagree with this bill," said Rep. Linda Lawson, D-Hammond, a retired police captain.
The House and Senate must still agree on a final version.
 

granfire

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
15,979
Reaction score
1,591
Location
In Pain
would you want to resist a person trained in using that side arm?
 

Haakon

Blue Belt
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
299
Reaction score
10
would you want to resist a person trained in using that side arm?

Of course, why wouldn't I if I were justified and in fear for my life? Police firearm training isn't all that impressive. I've seen many police officers shooting at the range over the years and it's unfortunate but most of them can't shoot for crap, only one was really good. A friend of mine used to train officers around the country and told me it was pretty much the same everywhere. You'll get the occasional officer who was a good shot and spent his own time practicing, but most didn't put in the effort to get any good. Police hit rates are only in the 25% range and the majority of people who actually do get shot don't die. So, yes, I would want to resist IF I reasonably believed force was necessary to protect myself or my family from unlawful actions by an officer.
 

RandomPhantom700

Master of Arts
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
1,583
Reaction score
69
Location
Treasure Coast, FL
This bill sets off all kinds of red flags in my mind. I'm usually one to fall on the side of individual rights and protections against police, but this bill, at least as I'm reading it, authorizes homeowners to use force based on their own judgment of whether officers have a right to be there. Not every "illegal entry" is from officers coming in wanting to commit a crime; sometimes the officers are just mistaken about the validity of a search warrant.

Just my initial reaction, anyway.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
This bill sets off all kinds of red flags in my mind. I'm usually one to fall on the side of individual rights and protections against police, but this bill, at least as I'm reading it, authorizes homeowners to use force based on their own judgment of whether officers have a right to be there. Not every "illegal entry" is from officers coming in wanting to commit a crime; sometimes the officers are just mistaken about the validity of a search warrant.

Just my initial reaction, anyway.

Yep, and how about what police officers have learned over the years about split second judgements being picked over for months or years by the courts. I would sooner obey a police officer who may be acting in good faith, than get into a shooting contest that one or both of us may lose. And then spend a lot of time and money giving various courts opportunities to argue with each other about the validity of both of us.

Unless there is more we aren't hearing about the specifics of the bill, I think there are going to be a lot of legislators wishing they could erase their names from the voting record.
 

David43515

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,383
Reaction score
50
Location
Sapporo, Japan
I think that you`re forgeting that not all force is armed force or lethal force. If an officer is trying to force his way itno my home w/o a warrant or probable cause and I shove him out the door, that`s force. If I were coming to the assistance of Officer A who is fighting with someone trying to take his sidearm, and Officer B arrives during the fight and begins beating me with a baton because he thinks I`m helping the crook, I`d understand his mistake......but I`d also try to block and might even bop him on the nose if he didn`t stop. (I know they`re rediculous scerarios, and I would most likely always ere on the side of cooperation and compliance, but to say that the people have no right to protect themselves with force if they had to sets a much more dangerous precident in my opinion.) More often than not I`m going to cooperate with the police and let a lawyer sort it out afterwards, but if I need to protect myself or a loved one from physical harm, the fact that the person doing the hitting is a LEO isn`t going to enter into it much. My right to live unmolested is something I take seriously.
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
Not to mention those cases where cops issuing no-knock warrants were shot as intruders because the homeowner was unaware they were cops... I can recall at least one instance of the homeowner getting 5 years in jail for it. I would think this would offer some protection to the homeowner.
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,480
Reaction score
1,246
Not to mention those cases where cops issuing no-knock warrants were shot as intruders because the homeowner was unaware they were cops... I can recall at least one instance of the homeowner getting 5 years in jail for it. I would think this would offer some protection to the homeowner.
You have to prove they really didnt know they were cops. If they were found guilty then they proved they really knew they were cops. I know personally of 2 incidents where officers were killed and the shooters were found not guilty because they proved they didnt know they were cops. I wear plain clothes and dont look like a cop long beard biker clothing ect i have to be very careful if i take police action because of this. Ive had cops pull guns on me ive been handcuffed your best bet is to comply and let the situation calm down and then try to talk to the officers. Unless the officers are really out of control.
 

Instructor

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
1,641
Reaction score
549
Location
Knoxville, TN
Yep, and how about what police officers have learned over the years about split second judgements being picked over for months or years by the courts. I would sooner obey a police officer who may be acting in good faith, than get into a shooting contest that one or both of us may lose. And then spend a lot of time and money giving various courts opportunities to argue with each other about the validity of both of us.

Unless there is more we aren't hearing about the specifics of the bill, I think there are going to be a lot of legislators wishing they could erase their names from the voting record.

Perhaps in Indiana the cops aren't acting in good faith.
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
You have to prove they really didnt know they were cops. If they were found guilty then they proved they really knew they were cops. I know personally of 2 incidents where officers were killed and the shooters were found not guilty because they proved they didnt know they were cops. I wear plain clothes and dont look like a cop long beard biker clothing ect i have to be very careful if i take police action because of this. Ive had cops pull guns on me ive been handcuffed your best bet is to comply and let the situation calm down and then try to talk to the officers. Unless the officers are really out of control.

That makes sense, of course, but in the middle of the night, in the dark if the door bursts open, people are often shooting first and sorting out later... I just think that in those cases, this law is an extra layer of protection for the homeowner. Obviously if you are guilty it will be harder to prove you had the right to shoot...
 
OP
M

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
http://www.wlky.com/r/30652146/detail.html

IMO, I don't think that any force should be used. Lets assume that the officers are doing a raid on a house....only they get the address wrong. In they come, and what do you do....turn around and start fighting with them? Chances are, you're probably going to get your *** kicked or worse.

I think that it'd be better to cooperate, and if it was an honest mistake, deal with it afterwards. I just don't see anything positive coming out of this.
 

Latest Discussions

Top