Best combo for street self defence

[Jared Traveler]

I brought this up because self defense was mentioned. Which is no the same as fighting. self defense is a much wider spectrum.

I hear you, but I'm suggesting that self-defense IS fighting, as in an employment of counter violence, which is a martial arts skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe you would have a different perspective if you were the one who had to advertise and market a school to attract people who are seriously looking for self-defense. You make the assumption that they don't know what to look for. In my experience I have often found that my school was not the first school that they checked out, nor was it the first school they trained in. They have requirements for what they expect of training and if your school doesn't meet those requirements then they will choose not to be a part of your school.

That's just the honest truth. A lot of times the discussion in the threads make it seem like the people seeking martial arts don't know what they want. Tell @Alan0354 that. Based on the people who asked about Jow Ga and self-defense in the past, it wasn't their first time seeking out a martial arts school. Same with the self defense class. Many had taken other self defense classes so they had enough exposure to compare my school with past schools and classes they attended. They weren't first timers who never took advantage of trial classes or invitations to come and watch classes.

I will argue that many don’t actually know what to look for, and make odd choices. I had one guy decide not to train with me because our beginning forms (first version of a technique someone learns) don’t include a strike when the person has been thrown. That was his entire issue. To him, forms that don’t conform to that standard are hopelessly flawed, regardless of the rest of the system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. The guy who couldn't perform well in one system changed systems and performed better.

If both teach a takedown and he is better at that takedown in the second system, it’s likely the second system was better for him (at least for that - maybe overall). Might be better for everyone, but we’d need consistent flow between them for this type of measurement to be meaningful.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I brought this up because self defense was mentioned. Which is no the same as fighting. self defense is a much wider spectrum.

That’s back to the question of definition. I normally use the term specifically refer to defending against a physical attack (not preventing or avoiding it - those fall into a larger umbrella category). So fighting (in that context) is what it’s about.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I will argue that many don’t actually know what to look for, and make odd choices. I had one guy decide not to train with me because our beginning forms (first version of a technique someone learns) don’t include a strike when the person has been thrown. That was his entire issue. To him, forms that don’t conform to that standard are hopelessly flawed, regardless of the rest of the system.

Only if they are completely new to visiting a martial arts schools. If they shop around, try some classes, watch some classes, and ask some questions then they would have some information that could be used for comparison.. This is why I always encourage people to take trial classes, watch classes, and to ask questions. If that's was the deciding factor for the person to not train at your school then you are better off without them as everything taught of that school would have been questioned.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I hear you, but I'm suggesting that self-defense IS fighting, as in an employment of counter violence, which is a martial arts skill.

If self defense is fighting, Then what is running away from someone who is attacking you. Is that self-defense or does self-defense only exist when you are fighting. If self-defense exists without fighting then Self-defense and fighting are not the same thing. Fighting is an component of self defense. If you had a book about self defense, then fighting would be a chapter. If the 2 were equal the you could change the title from self-defense to fighting and it would read the same.

 

[Flying Crane]

You said people do martial arts for a variety of reasons, absolutely and it’s all good, my 11 year daughter started tkd 6 months ago, great for flexibility cause she was stiff as a board, great for fitness cause she’s lost weight, great as a social club making friends cause she was shy, great for building confidence cause standing up doing patterns in front of the class takes guts. Also sparring even though it’s soft touch gives an idea of how to fight.All these things are important in a street fight flexibility, fitness,confidence etc. But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are

To whom are you comparing your daughter? That would be other 11 year-old girls with no more than 6 months training in some other martial art. You are convinced, hands-down, that she would lose against them all? That is an indictment of her school.

The truth is, there are a lot of schools teaching to a low level of quality. You will get no argument from me over that point. But that is a problem with the school itself and not necessarily the method as a whole. I have always understood that most schools teaching to the younger kids, especially those below age eight or so, are largely a daycare operation with a karate theme. Often they play games designed to keep the kids physically moving and simply having fun. But there is very little actual martial content happening in many cases. This has become more clear to me as I have an eight year-old who will not let me teach him because I am his dad, so I have begun looking at the schools in my area to see if there is anyone I would be willing to allow to teach him. Really, I just want him to be more active and interact with other kids more, make sure he doesn’t become too much of an introvert (I am an introvert myself and am perfectly fine with it, but it is important to make an effort to get out and interact now and again). But I am seeing first-hand how low the bar is often set when teaching these young kids.

At any rate, I don’t believe your daughter is the best example of what training is best for defense or fighting or whatever, because of her age and brief training time and the overall low bar that is typically set in schools that teach lots of kids. And whatever example you might want to use, make sure you are comparing with an appropriate peer group. If the nearest comparison to your daughter is a 16 year-old boy who has been training Muay Thai for a year, I would say definitively she will lose. But that isn’t really a fair comparison.

 

[Jared Traveler]

If self defense is fighting, Then what is running away from someone who is attacking you. Is that self-defense or does self-defense only exist when you are fighting. If self-defense exists without fighting then Self-defense and fighting are not the same thing. Fighting is an component of self defense. If you had a book about self defense, then fighting would be a chapter. If the 2 were equal the you could change the title from self-defense to fighting and it would read the same.

Self-defense does not exists without fighting. Or more specifically without applying some level of force yourself, against a threat. Consider the legal definition of self-defense, and the fact that this term is written into the law in many places.

Running is not self-defense, it may be self-preservation, avoidance, or escape and evasion. It is certainly a part of a well-rounded personal protection plan, but it is not self-defense. Self-defense is a martial activity.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I thought about that actually, though am biased. FMA definitely have a unique fighting style that blends well against boxing. My only concern is that a lot of the open handed stuff is done with the idea that you are trying to get to your weapon, and less time is spent on hands. So while it could be better, I'm not sure that in reality, average practitioner vs. average practitioner, if you limit yourself to just punches (which i assume is what OP means by hands only) it is.

Hi Monkey turned Wolf ,

I and others I know have trained hands from FMA as we are not always allowed or able to carry certain tools.

So for a FMA that trained hands and a boxer that trained hands, I would still say it depends.
Upon weight
Time in training
Dedication of the student
Their personal lives.

Now let us assume Twins in everything from what they experienced to what they ate, with the one exception of Boxing versus Hands FMA.
It could be 50/50 , yet with my bias and my experience practicing without gloves, slipping and trapping and checking would give the advantage to FMA.

That and $10 bucks I could loan you would get you a large coffee from your place of choice.
So it is my opinion. And my experience with Boxers.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hi Monkey turned Wolf ,

I and others I know have trained hands from FMA as we are not always allowed or able to carry certain tools.

So for a FMA that trained hands and a boxer that trained hands, I would still say it depends.
Upon weight
Time in training
Dedication of the student
Their personal lives.

Now let us assume Twins in everything from what they experienced to what they ate, with the one exception of Boxing versus Hands FMA.
It could be 50/50 , yet with my bias and my experience practicing without gloves, slipping and trapping and checking would give the advantage to FMA.

That and $10 bucks I could loan you would get you a large coffee from your place of choice.
So it is my opinion. And my experience with Boxers.

Just to clarify, with my bias comment I meant bias towards fma. I switched over to FMA maybe 5-6 years ago.

That said, with my experience in FMA (specifically in kali, I've seen a couple different places, but all my style), yes there are more tools with hands that we can use. And if we spent equal time training hands, or even close, I would give it to FMA. But we spend much less of our training time focusing on unarmed vs. unarmed then boxers do with punching, so pure training time on just that one aspect is why I give it to boxers. And some of our unarmed is also spent with standup grappling, which as I mentioned in an earlier comment, while that's "hands" I get the feeling OP wasn't considering it hands when he made his comment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Self-defense does not exists without fighting. Or more specifically without applying some level of force yourself, against a threat. Consider the legal definition of self-defense, and the fact that this term is written into the law in many places.

Running is not self-defense, it may be self-preservation, avoidance, or escape and evasion. It is certainly a part of a well-rounded personal protection plan, but it is not self-defense. Self-defense is a martial activity.

I will look at the legal definition

 

[JowGaWolf]

Self-defense does not exists without fighting. Or more specifically without applying some level of force yourself, against a threat. Consider the legal definition of self-defense, and the fact that this term is written into the law in many places.

Running is not self-defense, it may be self-preservation, avoidance, or escape and evasion. It is certainly a part of a well-rounded personal protection plan, but it is not self-defense. Self-defense is a martial activity.

I will use the legal definition of it which is how you are explaining it.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just to clarify, with my bias comment I meant bias towards fma. I switched over to FMA maybe 5-6 years ago.

That said, with my experience in FMA (specifically in kali, I've seen a couple different places, but all my style), yes there are more tools with hands that we can use. And if we spent equal time training hands, or even close, I would give it to FMA. But we spend much less of our training time focusing on unarmed vs. unarmed then boxers do with punching, so pure training time on just that one aspect is why I give it to boxers. And some of our unarmed is also spent with standup grappling, which as I mentioned in an earlier comment, while that's "hands" I get the feeling OP wasn't considering it hands when he made his comment.

Yes the prevalent Kali system right now is much more into weapons and blades and find your opponents blades.
I get that.

I also would not make the same assumption about the grappling as that would mean no traps, no sticky hands, no striking the arms, which means Boxing only.
And if that is the rule, then of course Boxing is going to win or be best in a boxing event / competition.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Where for example you could do a krav and even at 50 would clean up everyone in the room. The training is designed for you to win.

Where bjj. You might spend years getting manhandled by everyone.

One is designed to produce satisfaction. And the other sacrifices satisfaction to produce effectiveness.


This for example you could do with a bad knee or on a bad day. Because regardless as to how ineffective you are you are going to win.

And the argument is it is more suited to older or time poor and so on. But I don't believe it is. It is just an easier game to beat.

Well that video doesn’t resemble any training that I am familiar with.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well that video doesn’t resemble any training that I am familiar with.

Many Krav Maga schools these days are basically TKD schools n black outfits where the instructor went and spent the weekend to get certified as a Krav Maga instructor. There are good Krav maga schools, there just hard to find as compared to the ones that call themselves Krav Maga that really aren't.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Satisfaction does not always equal effectiveness.

I guess the proof is in the pudding. I’m effective, but I’m never satisfied.

 

[drop bear]

Well that video doesn’t resemble any training that I am familiar with.

It doesn’t have to. It was to demonstrate a concept. Not really denial style.

 

[drop bear]

If both teach a takedown and he is better at that takedown in the second system, it’s likely the second system was better for him (at least for that - maybe overall). Might be better for everyone, but we’d need consistent flow between them for this type of measurement to be meaningful.

I can almost guarantee he is just in a better learning environment.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It doesn’t have to. It was to demonstrate a concept. Not really denial style.

I don’t know much about Krav but I dont think I would train that school based on that video.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Only if they are completely new to visiting a martial arts schools. If they shop around, try some classes, watch some classes, and ask some questions then they would have some information that could be used for comparison.. This is why I always encourage people to take trial classes, watch classes, and to ask questions. If that's was the deciding factor for the person to not train at your school then you are better off without them as everything taught of that school would have been questioned.

The person in question had experience (not sure how much) in a related art, so wasn't completely new.