Is there a technique too brutal for you to use?

Jared Traveler

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Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?

Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.

For me one of those techniques is the spinning elbow. It just seems so unbelievably devastating, and potentially life-altering that I do not think of it in my mind like throwing other elbows. It is something special, horrible, tricky and beautiful. I would never throw it without making a conscious moral decision that somebody deserved that technique in particular.

Do you have a technique you feel this way about?

 

Kung Fu Wang

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Outer leg twisting that you can hurt your opponent's knee joint side way. It's the only MA technique that has no counter as far as I know. The regular leg twisting is banned in Judo tournament. The outer leg twisting is worse.
 

Alan0354

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I think it's a good and effective technique. And NO, for self defense, everything goes. Be real, it's NOT that easy to knock someone out. Even in the video, it took two or three tries to get a good one. This is simple, nothing fancy. That's the kind I like, no fancy pretty moves for show. Just effective.

I should have practice the spin elbow!!! Not just the spinning, but elbowing on pole is just as important. I tried elbow with the back of the arm like this, it's painful. So I decided just practice elbow on the forearm side. Now, I have to do the back side!!! It's going to hurt. But it's important because this is to the skull.
 

drop bear

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Why do I get this feeling that this is one of those psychological experiments where we see if we can all out humble brag each other.
 

wab25

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Outer leg twisting that you can hurt your opponent's knee joint side way. It's the only MA technique that has no counter as far as I know. The regular leg twisting is banned in Judo tournament. The outer leg twisting is worse.

Can you show or explain what "outer leg twisting" is?
 

_Simon_

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It's gotta be this one... hands down.

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Flying Crane

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If the spinning elbow is allowed in tournaments then some assessment for safety must have been done.

Lots of techniques can be lethal if landed the right way, but they can be less than lethal otherwise. You just need to be certain the situation justifies it, and that you can defend that decision in trial, if need be.
 

Tony Dismukes

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This question seems a bit weird to me. The morality of using a technique in combat depends on the situation, not the "effectiveness" of it.

Would you be willing to ever use a gun or knife in combat? I certainly wouldn't ever want to. But if the only available way to protect a family member from a deadly threat was by shooting the attacker, I would be willing to do so. Maybe I'd have nightmares about it the rest of my life, but I'd do it.

Guns and knives are intended to kill. If you shoot or stab someone, there's a decent chance they're going to die (or possibly end up with some permanent crippling injury). I know a lot of unarmed fighting techniques. None of them are going to do anything worse than kill or permanently cripple someone. The vast majority will produce less severe results. If I would be willing to shoot someone as a last result in a self-defense situation, then I would certainly be willing to use less-lethal unarmed techniques.

The appropriate level of force depends on the situation. Lethal force can be justified in defending against a deadly threat. But I'm not going to shoot a kid for breaking into my car. I'm not going to gouge eyes in a sparring match. I'm not going to break my cousin's leg if he gets drunk and wants to fight me at a family picnic.

For me one of those techniques is the spinning elbow. It just seems so unbelievably devastating, and potentially life-altering that I do not think of it in my mind like throwing other elbows. It is something special, horrible, tricky and beautiful. I would never throw it without making a conscious moral decision that somebody deserved that technique in particular.
??? A spinning elbow can (if it lands perfectly) produce a nasty knockout. But no more so than any other power strike to the head. A good left hook, overhand right, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, etc can all produce instant knockouts and sometimes structural damage like a broken jaw, a fractured eye socket, or (rarely) a fracture in one of the skull bones. But I'm not aware of any evidence that the spinning elbow produces a higher rate of life-altering injuries than any other power strike to the head.
 
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Jared Traveler

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If the spinning elbow is allowed in tournaments then some assessment for safety must have been done.

Lots of techniques can be lethal if landed the right way, but they can be less than lethal otherwise. You just need to be certain the situation justifies it, and that you can defend that decision in trial, if need be.
The legal aspect is always an important consideration. However not apart of my hesitation regarding the spinning elbow. If I use it, it will be justified legally.

But just because it's legal doesn't mean I want to hit them that hard. It would take the right person to really ask for something like that.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Outer leg twisting that you can hurt your opponent's knee joint side way. It's the only MA technique that has no counter as far as I know. The regular leg twisting is banned in Judo tournament. The outer leg twisting is worse.
Are you talking about the inverted heel hook?
It's definitely one of the most destructive submissions out there. But like any move, there are counters. In fact there are multiple video instructional sets on how to set it up, counter it, counter the counter, counter the counters to the counter, and so on.
 
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Jared Traveler

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This question seems a bit weird to me. The morality of using a technique in combat depends on the situation, not the "effectiveness" of it.

Would you be willing to ever use a gun or knife in combat? I certainly wouldn't ever want to. But if the only available way to protect a family member from a deadly threat was by shooting the attacker, I would be willing to do so. Maybe I'd have nightmares about it the rest of my life, but I'd do it.

Guns and knives are intended to kill. If you shoot or stab someone, there's a decent chance they're going to die (or possibly end up with some permanent crippling injury). I know a lot of unarmed fighting techniques. None of them are going to do anything worse than kill or permanently cripple someone. The vast majority will produce less severe results. If I would be willing to shoot someone as a last result in a self-defense situation, then I would certainly be willing to use less-lethal unarmed techniques.

The appropriate level of force depends on the situation. Lethal force can be justified in defending against a deadly threat. But I'm not going to shoot a kid for breaking into my car. I'm not going to gouge eyes in a sparring match. I'm not going to break my cousin's leg if he gets drunk and wants to fight me at a family picnic.


??? A spinning elbow can (if it lands perfectly) produce a nasty knockout. But no more so than any other power strike to the head. A good left hook, overhand right, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, etc can all produce instant knockouts and sometimes structural damage like a broken jaw, a fractured eye socket, or (rarely) a fracture in one of the skull bones. But I'm not aware of any evidence that the spinning elbow produces a higher rate of life-altering injuries than any other power strike to the head.
First I agree there is no evidence I'm aware of that the spinning elbow is more brutal than other strikes. But the body rotation, combined with all the video evidence, have lead me to believe that if I throw it, I can likely expect a certain result. A result I'm not willing to dish out to just anyone, despite being able to justify it.

With that said, if they have earned it(by my own determination) I would certainly dish it out. But it would take a lot for them to earn it.
 
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Jared Traveler

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This question seems a bit weird to me. The morality of using a technique in combat depends on the situation, not the "effectiveness" of it.

Would you be willing to ever use a gun or knife in combat? I certainly wouldn't ever want to. But if the only available way to protect a family member from a deadly threat was by shooting the attacker, I would be willing to do so. Maybe I'd have nightmares about it the rest of my life, but I'd do it.

Guns and knives are intended to kill. If you shoot or stab someone, there's a decent chance they're going to die (or possibly end up with some permanent crippling injury). I know a lot of unarmed fighting techniques. None of them are going to do anything worse than kill or permanently cripple someone. The vast majority will produce less severe results. If I would be willing to shoot someone as a last result in a self-defense situation, then I would certainly be willing to use less-lethal unarmed techniques.

The appropriate level of force depends on the situation. Lethal force can be justified in defending against a deadly threat. But I'm not going to shoot a kid for breaking into my car. I'm not going to gouge eyes in a sparring match. I'm not going to break my cousin's leg if he gets drunk and wants to fight me at a family picnic.


??? A spinning elbow can (if it lands perfectly) produce a nasty knockout. But no more so than any other power strike to the head. A good left hook, overhand right, roundhouse kick, spinning hook kick, etc can all produce instant knockouts and sometimes structural damage like a broken jaw, a fractured eye socket, or (rarely) a fracture in one of the skull bones. But I'm not aware of any evidence that the spinning elbow produces a higher rate of life-altering injuries than any other power strike to the head.
Also lethal force is not something I have a problem using when objectively reasonable. Shoot them, stab them, run them over, throw them over a rail, whatever needs done, if they need stopped that badly.

With that said, not everyone that I could legally hit with a spinning elbow, am I willing to hit with it. If I can solve the problem another way, I'm inclined to do that in most cases. Not everyone who deserves to be hit, do I want to see hit that hard.
 

Tony Dismukes

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have lead me to believe that if I throw it, I can likely expect a certain result
It's probably a good idea to distinguish between throwing the technique and landing it perfectly. A perfectly landed spinning elbow has a decent chance of causing a knockout. But even high-level professional fighters don't land the spinning elbow perfectly the majority of times that they throw it. A decent percentage of the time it doesn't even land at all.
A result I'm not willing to dish out to just anyone, despite being able to justify it.

With that said, if they have earned it(by my own determination) I would certainly dish it out. But it would take a lot for them to earn it.
The hoped for result from a well-executed and perfectly landed spinning elbow is a knockout. That's the same hoped-for result from most power shots to the head, whether from a punch, knee, kick, elbow, spinning or non-spinning technique. It's up to you what circumstances you feel would justify knocking someone out. If you aren't willing to do it in sportive competition, then don't do boxing, kickboxing, or MMA.

For myself, I would be willing to knock someone out in a self-defense situation if I thought they posed a significant threat and I couldn't avoid, escape, or defuse the situation and I wasn't sure that I could just control them without causing injury. The spinning elbow wouldn't be one of my go-to moves just because spinning techniques can be risky and I'm not as good at it as I am other striking techniques.
 
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Jared Traveler

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It's probably a good idea to distinguish between throwing the technique and landing it perfectly. A perfectly landed spinning elbow has a decent chance of causing a knockout. But even high-level professional fighters don't land the spinning elbow perfectly the majority of times that they throw it. A decent percentage of the time it doesn't even land at all.

The hoped for result from a well-executed and perfectly landed spinning elbow is a knockout. That's the same hoped-for result from most power shots to the head, whether from a punch, knee, kick, elbow, spinning or non-spinning technique. It's up to you what circumstances you feel would justify knocking someone out. If you aren't willing to do it in sportive competition, then don't do boxing, kickboxing, or MMA.

For myself, I would be willing to knock someone out in a self-defense situation if I thought they posed a significant threat and I couldn't avoid, escape, or defuse the situation and I wasn't sure that I could just control them without causing injury. The spinning elbow wouldn't be one of my go-to moves just because spinning techniques can be risky and I'm not as good at it as I am other striking techniques.
Landing techniques on opponents outside a ring or cage can in theory be challenging. But in reality its rarely as changeling as what one faces in competition. Something you would struggle greatly to accomplish in a ring, can be really easy to accomplish outside of it. Although there are always confrontation that would be an exception to this.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Have you ever learned something, so effective, and brutal that you question the morality of ever using it on another human being?

Ever, it's probably a strong word use. But certainly this particular technique is so harsh, and brutal that it's not one of your go-to moves, because using it would require a serious moral decision on your part.

For me one of those techniques is the spinning elbow. It just seems so unbelievably devastating, and potentially life-altering that I do not think of it in my mind like throwing other elbows. It is something special, horrible, tricky and beautiful. I would never throw it without making a conscious moral decision that somebody deserved that technique in particular.

Do you have a technique you feel this way about?
There are many techniques that are not appropriate for training with partners outside of a very controlled environment. Obviously I would not use such a strike against a training partner, and I do not compete - even when I did, it wasn't full-contact tournaments.

I would only fight these days to defend my life. If that is indeed the case, I'll use anything and everything I can to end the fight quickly and leave. Assuming that I am truly a victim and not a mutual combatant or instigator, the attacker may expect to be permanently injured if I am able to do it. I'll gouge eyes, rip off ears, destroy knees or eardrums, kick or punch testicles, bite, whatever. I have no obligation to further risk my own life to spare that of an attacker intent on ending mine, and I'm not going to mentally search through my skillset for less-lethal responses; he gets what he gets.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I wonder if there is a technique that would actually send an assailants soul to the ninth level of Hell for all eternity, rather than simply kill him. That one might pose a bit of a moral quandary.
There is, but a person would have to be a master of Sinanju to know how to do it.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Can you show or explain what "outer leg twisting" is?
Your right leg twist on your opponnt's right leg. You use whole body weight to force his right knee to bent inward while his right foot is on the ground and cannot move. You won't kill your opponent. But you will damage his knee joint.

Just stand in horse stance (with bending knee) and use your own right hand to push your right knee inward while keeping your upper body verticle. You will get the feeling.

my-upper-leg-bite.gif
 
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