Belt system are more for the teacher than the student.

silent killer

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In many organizations, authority is, in fact, based on rank. Respect is earned. I don't get to decide an upper rank has no authority over me within an organization, so long as I am part of that organization.
A Black belt doesn織t mean that person is a really good person.
I do not think martial arts is like the Military & "Authority" has no place in a Dojo or whatever.
 

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A Black belt doesn織t mean that person is a really good person.
I do not think martial arts is like the Military & "Authority" has no place in a Dojo or whatever.
Authority always exists. The chief instructor in a school has the authority to decide who gets to train what and when, and who's even allowed to join classes. That authority is inherent in their position. Within many organizations, there is a hierarchy of authority (ability to grant rank, conduct tests, etc.).

You cannot have an organization without authority resting somewhere.
 

Hot Lunch

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I can think of a few exmples where this isn't true.
You've been a part of organizations where you're only required to follow orders of people in higher positions if you respect them? Please let me know what organizations they are so I can stay away from them.
 

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Nope. That the correct word is Authority
1. the power or right to give orders, make decisions,
2. a person or organization having power or control in a particular, typically political or administrative, sphere.

I been through this personally but I won't go back over the story of what happened to me with my last Jow Ga school.
Authority does not require respect from followers. That's why you need a different word.
 
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JowGaWolf

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yes i get ya bro ..but why does the Sensei need a belt?
Other than part of the uniform or maybe for Outsiders within the system, the Sensei probably doesn't need a belt. I'm assuming that Karate folks don't go around wearing their belt outside of classes or school related events, right?

In many organizations, authority is, in fact, based on rank. Respect is earned. I don't get to decide an upper rank has no authority over me within an organization, so long as I am part of that organization.
Again, I know of scenarios of where that becomes a problem. Name one teacher who would give this child Authority over you, the adult.

Respect is earned. I don't get to decide an upper rank has no authority over me within an organization, so long as I am part of that organization.
You don't but your Sensai does. If you were a black belt who didn't know how to use Karate then I wouldn't bother attending your sparring classes for training if you lack the skills to either use or teach others how to use the techniques. Your Authority has been removed. I'll still respect you based on school rank but that would be it.

If I turned out to be stellar at applying Karate, you will have to make a decision. Do you learn from someone of a lower rank or do you decide not to train with or under me simply because my belt is of a lower ranked color. If you decide to learn from men, then you will give me the Authority needed for you to learn. That basically if I say do it like this by stepping 45 degrees, then you'll just have to either accept it or not argue about it being wrong because that's not how it's done in Kata.

If none of the other black belts can do what a lower belt does excellently, then it's just wasted knowledge in a Dojo. I don't know how many dojos have had to deal with that scenario because Karate is more straight forward than Kung Fu.

But there was TKD person in here who was learning how to punch from some people, who had no rank in his system or school. If the school only treasures kata then it's not going to happen. However, if I took Roka's Aikido class and I was beating everyone with Aikido. He would ask me to teach him. Maybe not in the class, but he would ask lol. I mean even now he's asking people without a rank in Aikido to help him learn how to apply Aikido.

But again. If the school only treasures kata then it's not going to happen. If the school also treasure application then some adjustments will be made. Things may change where, one day a month Authority is given to a student of talent so that he can teach others within the school or at least share with others how he does it.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Authority does not require respect from followers. That's why you need a different word.
Nope I don't need another word. The word that I'm using is correct. You are correct that Authority doesn't need respect. You can run Authority with fear. So I'm just assuming that none of use solidifies Authority through the use of fear.

I'm also assume that no one trains under a teacher who doesn't have characteristics that you don't respect. Just a few days ago some people were talking about red flags. I also don't think there's anyone who would make someone an instructor simply because of their skills. It wouldn't make sense to make to Give someone give them Authority if they are known for borderline bullying or who was too fresh with the ladies.

It may not seem like respect isn't part of it, but everything else tends to point towards that direction
 
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JowGaWolf

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Belts are for people who want their gi to stay closed. It gets breezy without them.
ha ha ha.. no. not true. use the same belt that the no belts have lol. Don't make me break out the old karate fotos with Afro lol.
 
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JowGaWolf

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A Black belt doesn織t mean that person is a really good person.
I do not think martial arts is like the Military & "Authority" has no place in a Dojo or whatever.
Even the military has standards. There is ia reason why words like Respect and Honor are important themes for the militaries around the world. No one says join the army so you can boss people around.

Correction on this.: Most militaries speak of Honor and Respect, Most people don't join militaries to boss people around. There are exceptions in some government where people join to have that type of power. Usually those militaries are small and the governments are usually dictatorships and communist governments were force and fear are valued more than respect. But those structures usually don't last long especially when the fight starts.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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Other than part of the uniform or maybe for Outsiders within the system, the Sensei probably doesn't need a belt. I'm assuming that Karate folks don't go around wearing their belt outside of classes or school related events, right?


Again, I know of scenarios of where that becomes a problem. Name one teacher who would give this child Authority over you, the adult.
Of course there are scenarios where that can be a problem. But that's the organization's problem to sort out - not something a student gets to decide, except by deciding not to be in that organization.
You don't but your Sensai does. If you were a black belt who didn't know how to use Karate then I wouldn't bother attending your sparring classes for training if you lack the skills to either use or teach others how to use the techniques. Your Authority has been removed. I'll still respect you based on school rank but that would be it.
That's not my authority removed in the situation, that's you deciding not to attend the class. I'd still have authority in that class. And if I was placed in charge of a class you're attending, you wouldn't get to decide not to follow the rules, though you can avoid the situation (which still doesn't change the authority of position).
If I turned out to be stellar at applying Karate, you will have to make a decision. Do you learn from someone of a lower rank or do you decide not to train with or under me simply because my belt is of a lower ranked color. If you decide to learn from men, then you will give me the Authority needed for you to learn. That basically if I say do it like this by stepping 45 degrees, then you'll just have to either accept it or not argue about it being wrong because that's not how it's done in Kata.
That's not about authority, though. I've learned from some of my own students. I have no problem with that. None of that changes that anyone attending my classes has to accept my authority. That is how authority of position works.
If none of the other black belts can do what a lower belt does excellently, then it's just wasted knowledge in a Dojo. I don't know how many dojos have had to deal with that scenario because Karate is more straight forward than Kung Fu.

But there was TKD person in here who was learning how to punch from some people, who had no rank in his system or school. If the school only treasures kata then it's not going to happen. However, if I took Roka's Aikido class and I was beating everyone with Aikido. He would ask me to teach him. Maybe not in the class, but he would ask lol. I mean even now he's asking people without a rank in Aikido to help him learn how to apply Aikido.
Again, that's not about authority, but about choosing who to learn from. When I had a long-time shotokan karate student in my Aikido classes, I sometimes chose to learn a bit from him. I even let him teach kicks to other students, because he had spent at least as much time on his kicks in his shorter career as I had, and he had a solid foundation (probably at least as good as mine). But that didn't change my authority in the class.
But again. If the school only treasures kata then it's not going to happen. If the school also treasure application then some adjustments will be made. Things may change where, one day a month Authority is given to a student of talent so that he can teach others within the school or at least share with others how he does it.
Yes, authority may be granted by the instructor to a student, but that doesn't change the inherent authority within an organization - that of the instructor or those above them.
 

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Nope I don't need another word. The word that I'm using is correct. You are correct that Authority doesn't need respect. You can run Authority with fear. So I'm just assuming that none of use solidifies Authority through the use of fear.

I'm also assume that no one trains under a teacher who doesn't have characteristics that you don't respect. Just a few days ago some people were talking about red flags. I also don't think there's anyone who would make someone an instructor simply because of their skills. It wouldn't make sense to make to Give someone give them Authority if they are known for borderline bullying or who was too fresh with the ladies.

It may not seem like respect isn't part of it, but everything else tends to point towards that direction
It feels like you're talking about something other than how I understand the word "authority". If you go into a doctor's office, the receptionist there has certain authority because of their position. You don't have to respect them for that to exist, nor do it require fear. It just is, unless and until it is revoked by their boss, who granted it.

This is pretty much the same within a MA organization. Whether you respect a shodan in the NGAA or not doesn't change that they have authority at a given level. Your choice is whether to accept that or not participate in the organization - which doesn't change the authority of that individual, just whether you are involved or not.
 
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JowGaWolf

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But that's the organization's problem to sort out - not something a student gets to decide, except by deciding not to be in that organization.
So tell me what you would do if you were in a school and you saw a karate instructor molesting a child. Will you follow rank and Authority? Or would you break rank and Authority to save the child? I can think of many more examples. Will you continue to allow that person to have Authority because of rank? To extreme.

I'll give you a personal example. The instructor was using a Jow Ga technique that strikes the top of the head. I didn't see the full thing but, but the student came to me and told me that she felt that the other instructor was being abusive and then she explained that she almost blacked out when she got hit on the top of the head. To me I thought she was just being clown when it happened because the reaction was so strange to me. I went back an looked at the video and so the full footage of what happened and how the vertebrae in her neck was being compressed.

I didn't ask the instructor not to do it, I didn't tell the Sifu who lived out of the country at that time. I personally told the instructor in a respectful way that we cannot do strikes to the top of the head and I explained what I saw. I wasn't asking him not to do. I was telling him that no one, including him to not do it.

Now I could take your route and say that it's the organization's problem or I can take what I understood to see from the video and from what the student was telling me and address it the next day. When I saw that the instructor was hitting too hard, then you can hear me in videos tell him to lighten up. You want to know why students came to me with things like this? Because when they went to the instructor he didn't ease up. I can take the position that it's not my problem since it was a senior student doing this, or I can speak up.
 
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JowGaWolf

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The same belt as the no belts? They'd have well...no belt.
They got one. Or at least I had one when I was in karate. It was called a draw string lol.. Joe Corley had karate pants,, a belt, and a t-shirt. I think that was the uniform that I had.
 
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JowGaWolf

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It feels like you're talking about something other than how I understand the word "authority". If you go into a doctor's office, the receptionist there has certain authority because of their position. You don't have to respect them for that to exist, nor do it require fear. It just is, unless and until it is revoked by their boss, who granted it.
That type of Authority deals with the administrative side of things, and it's very limited it's not Authority over what the patient can and can't do while sitting in the rating room. If you Act unruly then they will call someone with Authority to come deal with you. There Authority is over those who work at the receptionist desk. They are there to assist the patient and not to order them. The Authority that they do have is related to management of your medical information. With in that group there is someone who manages them and that person is in charge of the other receptionist which satisfies #1 definition below. #2 is also satisfied because they have control of the administrative sphere.

The doctors do not tell the receptionist how to do their jobs. They have other people in charge of that. The doctor only focuses on the patient. If the receptionist isn't doing their job, then there is someone withing the administrative office that will handle that. Similar to how things work for me. If an employee is not happy about my assistance, then they complain and my boss either tells me to do better or tells me not to worry about it. If it's severe then I lose my job.

The receptionist assists you and tells you want you should be doing and how to do it. If you have questions, they will help you. They do not order you to file your medical records or pay your bills. The most they ever stated in terms of a command to patients is, which side to sit on , if there's a sick side and well side of the room, and during covid. Wear a mask and if someone didn't have one, they may provide one.
 

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So tell me what you would do if you were in a school and you saw a karate instructor molesting a child. Will you follow rank and Authority? Or would you break rank and Authority to save the child? I can think of many more examples. Will you continue to allow that person to have Authority because of rank? To extreme.
That's an entirely different matter. That's not about whether you respect someone or not and has zero to do with rank - this is getting ludicrous.

Here's a simple way to look at this. You walk into a new school, and want to try out the classes. You are put in a class with an instructor you haven't met (maybe you talked with the chief instructror, and he teaches on a different day). Do you refuse to acknowledge the authority of this instructor (who you do not yet have a reason to respect) and just ignore their instructions, or do you accept their authority unless and until you have a reason not to?

The answer, of course, is that you accept authority of position. Barring extremes, if you determine you can't respect the person, you'll just remove yourself from the situation. You as an individual removing yourself because you don't respect them doesn't change their authority in that position - it just means you're no longer subject to it.
I'll give you a personal example. The instructor was using a Jow Ga technique that strikes the top of the head. I didn't see the full thing but, but the student came to me and told me that she felt that the other instructor was being abusive and then she explained that she almost blacked out when she got hit on the top of the head. To me I thought she was just being clown when it happened because the reaction was so strange to me. I went back an looked at the video and so the full footage of what happened and how the vertebrae in her neck was being compressed.

I didn't ask the instructor not to do it, I didn't tell the Sifu who lived out of the country at that time. I personally told the instructor in a respectful way that we cannot do strikes to the top of the head and I explained what I saw. I wasn't asking him not to do. I was telling him that no one, including him to not do it.

Now I could take your route and say that it's the organization's problem or I can take what I understood to see from the video and from what the student was telling me and address it the next day. When I saw that the instructor was hitting too hard, then you can hear me in videos tell him to lighten up. You want to know why students came to me with things like this? Because when they went to the instructor he didn't ease up. I can take the position that it's not my problem since it was a senior student doing this, or I can speak up.
That's also not about respect, though. That's about exerting influence to correct a situation. If that instructor had been the owner of a school, you could influence them, but it wouldn't change their authority over the class. In fact, other than legal action, all you had was influence. Your action didn't change their authority. You seem to be confusing authority with leadership, or who has more influence, or something.

Just because someone has positional authority, that doesn't mean they become an absolute dictator in the situation. It just means there's certain power that's inherent in their position. The easiest and clearest example is one I think used before: the chief instructor at a school gets to decide who can train (and who else can make those decisions). Nothing anyone decides will supercede that authority, unless it's someone who somehow "outranks" them (maybe the school is owned by a retired instructor). Even someone deciding not to train doesn't change that the CI has the authority to decide if that person is allowed to train or not.
 

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