Belt system are more for the teacher than the student.

Gerry Seymour

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They got one. Or at least I had one when I was in karate. It was called a draw string lol.. Joe Corley had karate pants,, a belt, and a t-shirt. I think that was the uniform that I had.
The draw string doesn't hold the top closed. The belt does that.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That type of Authority deals with the administrative side of things, and it's very limited it's not Authority over what the patient can and can't do while sitting in the rating room. If you Act unruly then they will call someone with Authority to come deal with you. There Authority is over those who work at the receptionist desk. They are there to assist the patient and not to order them. The Authority that they do have is related to management of your medical information. With in that group there is someone who manages them and that person is in charge of the other receptionist which satisfies #1 definition below. #2 is also satisfied because they have control of the administrative sphere.

The doctors do not tell the receptionist how to do their jobs. They have other people in charge of that. The doctor only focuses on the patient. If the receptionist isn't doing their job, then there is someone withing the administrative office that will handle that. Similar to how things work for me. If an employee is not happy about my assistance, then they complain and my boss either tells me to do better or tells me not to worry about it. If it's severe then I lose my job.

The receptionist assists you and tells you want you should be doing and how to do it. If you have questions, they will help you. They do not order you to file your medical records or pay your bills. The most they ever stated in terms of a command to patients is, which side to sit on , if there's a sick side and well side of the room, and during covid. Wear a mask and if someone didn't have one, they may provide one.
Again, you seem to be saying someone doesn't have authority over you unless it's absolute. Nobody is arguing anyone has absolute authority based on position. But it's absolutely true that nearly any position will carry some positional authority - decisions they are able to make that people outside that position cannot, and which can only be superceded by someone with more authority.
 

Hot Lunch

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I hate that I have to be diplomatic here, but...

Whenever you take a leadership course, whether in school or one that your job sends you to, and French and Raven's bases of power is discussed, this is what is usually stated:

Legitimate power is the only base that is backed by policy (or law, in some cases). However, legitimate power alone does not engender effective leadership. For the leadership to be effective, legitimate power must be backed by at least one other base.

But please bear in mind, this is discussing leadership and its effectiveness. That's different from authority. Authority is established solely by legitimate power. Authority does not come from charisma (referent power), or any of the power bases. You're not getting fired from your job for blowing off the requests of a smooth-talking coworker who's on your level or lower.
 
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Hot Lunch

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The draw string doesn't hold the top closed. The belt does that.
I've only worn karate, judo, and BJJ gis. Judo and BJJ gis require a belt to keep the top closed, but karate gis have the strings on the sides. There are some karate dojos where students will start out at "no belt" and have to "earn" their white belt.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I've only worn karate, judo, and BJJ gis. Judo and BJJ gis require a belt to keep the top closed, but karate gis have the strings on the sides. There are some karate dojos where students will start out at "no belt" and have to "earn" their white belt.
Yep. Until I switched to Judo gis (for longevity), I used Karate gis with those side ties. They are convenient.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Again, you seem to be saying someone doesn't have authority over you unless it's absolute.
No this isn't what I've been saying. All of the examples that I have given are examples showing that it's not absolute. I also give an example of a child with a black belt and by definition of what a Black Belt represents in terms of authority would not be given that Authority.

In terms of authority would you place someone in authority that you didn't respect? You may not like someone who was placed in a position of authority, but the person who placed them was respected enough to be put there by someone other than you. Maybe it's just me, but my experience is that people don't knowingly place their enemies in positions of authority within an organization. Most also don't place people who they think students would respect, because those students would then leave the school.

My last thoughts on this perception of authority. The first step to destroying authority is to kill the respect or the fear that people have for it. Respect is stronger than and takes less energy to maintain than fear.
 

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No this isn't what I've been saying. All of the examples that I have given are examples showing that it's not absolute. I also give an example of a child with a black belt and by definition of what a Black Belt represents in terms of authority would not be given that Authority.
That assumes that child's BB rank carries any authority in that organization. I'm betting it doesn't - either their BB rank carries no special authority (though perhaps some responsibility), or they have a caveat around it.
In terms of authority would you place someone in authority that you didn't respect?
That's not the issue, though. If I had no respect for someone, I wouldn't have promoted them to a rank that carried that authority, when rank does so. In the NGAA, for instance, there are some levels of authority granted to shodan (ability to promote students to any rank below them, for instance, or to run a school unsupervised). I simply wouldn't promote someone to that rank who I didn't believe was capable of carrying out that authority as expected. But once they have that rank, they have that authority unless and until the organization revokes the rank. So if they open a school, their students don't have to wait to develop respect for them - that instructor now has that authority.
You may not like someone who was placed in a position of authority, but the person who placed them was respected enough to be put there by someone other than you. Maybe it's just me, but my experience is that people don't knowingly place their enemies in positions of authority within an organization. Most also don't place people who they think students would respect, because those students would then leave the school.

My last thoughts on this perception of authority. The first step to destroying authority is to kill the respect or the fear that people have for it. Respect is stronger than and takes less energy to maintain than fear.
I think we've talking across each other, but I'm understanding your point better. You're saying that someone must have respected them to grant them that authority. I don't kow that's necessarily the case (people are hired into posts after a relatively brief interview, and they carry that authority before respect can develop. But in the negative, I'd agree: someone who you lack respect for (as opposed to just not having devleoped it yet) is not someone you (or anyone else in that situation) would likely grant authority to. Unfortunately, I've seen folks promoted into positions authority in business by people who didn't respect them, either because it was ordered by someone who didn't know the situation (and perhaps didn't respect the promoter in question), or in hopes of either that person or their new team failing.
 
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JowGaWolf

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I think we've talking across each other, but I'm understanding your point better. You're saying that someone must have respected them to grant them that authority.
This is accurate. Somone must have some kind of respect for someone to appoint them to that position.
The exception to this would be things done for personal gains for the purpose of exploiting a person or trying to create a system of "Yes men" where the person's position is an exploitation to gain additional power beyond what is assigned to the higher rank. The other case would be the "fall guy" The higher rank needs someone to blame and take the heat and or punishment for something that was done. But even then, in those situations enemies won't be placed there.

But for many of us who aren't corrupt in that manner. People who we don't respect are the same people who we don't want to be in those positions of authority. We get faked out sometimes but that's the go to for most. Fear would be the other side of this stuff, but it's the same weakness. Fear only works when people fear the Authority.

The rich guy with the car gets more respect than the poor guy on the street.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Oh, they come open often in Judo competitions, and it happens often enough in rough training, too. But it works most of the time.
I'll take your word for it. It's not because they want to show off their chest. It's becasue technology doesn't exist to design a top that doesn't require a belt to keep it closed. I understand now. lol.

Blame the belt Hairy Chuck. Blame the belt lol
OIP.fGQfdm75DdoMYHUq10T1WwHaEW
 
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Hot Lunch

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That assumes that child's BB rank carries any authority in that organization. I'm betting it doesn't - either their BB rank carries no special authority (though perhaps some responsibility), or they have a caveat around it.
Which has been my experience, at least at my last dojo. A junior black belt can't "pull rank" on adult mudansha, but adult mudansha are still required to initiate a greeting with a bow and an osu.

And that's okay. A 45 year old Sergeant Major who has been in the military longer than a 2nd Lieutenant has been alive is still required to salute him. And no Sergeant Major - or any other NCO for that matter - worth his salt will ever claim to feel lesser for having to do so.
 

Hot Lunch

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I'll take your word for it. It's not because they want to show off their chest. It's becasue technology doesn't exist to design a top that doesn't require a belt to keep it closed. I understand now. lol.

Blame the belt Hairy Chuck. Blame the belt lol
OIP.fGQfdm75DdoMYHUq10T1WwHaEW
Oh, the technology does exist. Think of the drawstring at the waist on the inside of most raincoats. And some of them have a pretty good buckle or other fastening system. They could do the same in judo or jujitsu gis if they wanted to. I'm assuming there's a reason they don't want to do that.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I'll take your word for it. It's not because they want to show off their chest. It's becasue technology doesn't exist to design a top that doesn't require a belt to keep it closed. I understand now. lol.

Blame the belt Hairy Chuck. Blame the belt lol
OIP.fGQfdm75DdoMYHUq10T1WwHaEW
LOL - there's certainly enough of that.

They come open in Judo competitions because of the pulling. Those side ties don't hold up well under that pressure - they get pulled hard enough they tend to rip the stitches where they are sewn in. That was a part of my switch to Judo gis, though I quickly found I missed the side ties, and was thinking about finding a way to add some, so I could still have the gi I liked.
 

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Oh, the technology does exist. Think of the drawstring at the waist on the inside of most raincoats. And some of them have a pretty good buckle or other fastening system. They could do the same in judo or jujitsu gis if they wanted to. I'm assuming there's a reason they don't want to do that.
It's been my experience that with hard pulling (like you get with Judo-style randori, and perhaps in BJJ rolling), the side ties that are the only answer I've seen to this problem simply don't hold up well.
 
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JowGaWolf

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It's been my experience that with hard pulling (like you get with Judo-style randori, and perhaps in BJJ rolling), the side ties that are the only answer I've seen to this problem simply don't hold up well.
I hear velcro works well.. lol.
50% covered in velcro should do it. Lol.

But on a serious note I guess the gi is supposed to simulate clothing pulling apart or being ripped open.
 
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isshinryuronin

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It's been my experience that with hard pulling (like you get with Judo-style randori, and perhaps in BJJ rolling), the side ties that are the only answer I've seen to this problem simply don't hold up well.
The same in karate when there was a lot of grabbing and pulling in the rough and tumble days. They would invariably get torn off. Very few guys used the ties. I cut mine off.
 

Hot Lunch

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I hear velcro works well.. lol.
50% covered in velcro should do it. Lol.

But on a serious note I guess the gi is supposed to simulate clothing pulling apart or being ripped open.
Possibly. Certainly, judo and jujitsu schools could have adopted pull-over gi tops (similar to TKD doboks) while keeping the same single/double weave if they didn't want the top to open.
 

Tony Dismukes

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In many organizations, authority is, in fact, based on rank. Respect is earned. I don't get to decide an upper rank has no authority over me within an organization, so long as I am part of that organization.

Authority always exists. The chief instructor in a school has the authority to decide who gets to train what and when, and who's even allowed to join classes. That authority is inherent in their position. Within many organizations, there is a hierarchy of authority (ability to grant rank, conduct tests, etc.).

You cannot have an organization without authority resting somewhere.
I'm not a fan of martial arts rank conferring any sort of authority over others*.

There is a limited sort of "authority" inherent in being the owner of a school or a teacher of a class. The school owner gets to decide who can attend the school. The instructor in a class gets to decide what material is being taught in class that day, how the class time is structured, and can kick out someone who is being disruptive. (Although I've never had to do that last one so far in all my years of teaching.) But that's down to the role of owner or instructor, not rank. If I (BJJ 3rd degree black belt), attend a class taught by a brown belt, then I am there as a student. I do the same drills and exercises that the teacher has everyone else do. I certainly don't try to override their authority as instructor based on my own rank.

*I'm interpreting the discussion so far regarding authority as meaning "having authority over others" rather than "being an authority (expert) in a subject."
 

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